[MUSIC] Okay, Francois, we're going to talk about the forensic approach in the area of anti-doping, could you tell us before you start a little bit about what you've done and what has taken you to this field of anti-doping? Well I'm responsible for research here at the LAD laboratory. I did my thesis under Professor Pierre and [INAUDIBLE] Sciences and [FOREIGN] here at the LAD. I've worked in many areas, especially the Analytical Area where I did a lot of work on nicotine and its use in sports. And at the end of my thesis, I looked more closely at the Criminal Science aspects in the area of anti-doping and what methods could be used coming from the Forensic Science side to improve the effectiveness. Francois, can you tell us about Forensic Approaches? Well, they come from criminal sciences, it's a very broad area, so just to sum up, it involves collecting traces. Traces about a criminal or from a criminal activity because anyone who is going to commit a crime will be depositing elements on the scene of the crime and will take some elements from the scene of the crime with them. So, it is through the analysis of these traces that we will be as a first stage, be able to formulate some hypotheses on how the criminal act took place. Which makes it possible for us to carry out an investigation. Look for evidence and to see whether a suspect can be identified. In fact, it's a method that is multi-disciplinary in its approach. It involves several different areas, chemistry, physics, fingerprints. It can be footprints, drugs, which we are going to test or analyze to be able to understand how we should be proceeding. It's an approach that is multi disciplinary, all encompassing and global in nature. Thank you. The anti-doping approach today, what are its limitations? Can you tell us a little bit about them? Well, today the fight against doping is based on a sort of a backbone which is the program of tests. And this testing program has its limitations because on the one hand, the effectiveness of the system will be limited by the ability to find the athletes that are considered to be the most suspicious. And then we have to have the analytical ability in the laboratory to detect prohibited substances, it's not always easy. Substances appearing on the market are changing often. Doping methods are increasingly sophisticated. And then there is also of course, the fact that an athlete is the only person who is targeted by the anti-doping fight, whereas there are many people surrounding the athlete who will assist them and provide substances to them. So the athlete is but one piece of the puzzle and we've been focusing only on this piece of the puzzle. So in other words, your widening your approach. That's one of the most significant changes. Yes, the idea is that we're integrating all sorts of information from the side of the police or customs services, other sports federations, anti-doping agencies to have a broader understanding of the picture. There was a recent change in the WADA 2015 code. This change, does it take into account this change in your approach? Yes, that's one of the main purposes of this change, to bring into this the people surrounding the athletes. So we're going to look at the doctors who are doping, the athletes' friends, family who assist the athletes. Give them advice in terms of the substances and methods for doping because these people were fairly free to do whatever they wanted to do. And even if their protege was caught, they could continue to carry out this activity. So now we're going to be focusing much more on this, and we're going to try to neutralize all of the links in the chain, so that an athlete can be prevented from using illegal substances. So, in other words, doctors, trainers, even relatives, parents might be sanctioned with this new code because they are assisting an athlete. Yes, they can be sanctioned. They can be prevented from carrying out any activities associated with professional sport, so they can be banned from sports all together. We can also prosecute them outside sports if there's trafficking of doping substances for example or an illegal practice of medicine. One could well imagine not only administrative issues for these people, but this means that there would be a change, it's a change in the culture of the fight against doping. The forensic approach, will it focus more on information that is not directly associated with the athlete, the whereabouts, the fact that the individual is taking substances? The national anti-doping bodies or agencies have in the code the obligation to provide methods for investigation. So now they're being encouraged to do this kind of research. A network has been created which brings together national federations anti-doping bodies because in the 2015 code precisely, we give the right and in fact the obligation to these agencies to provide investigation methods. So this network has been set up where there are discussions with customs services, with law enforcement agencies. There is international cooperation that is now in place. An exchange of information in other words which allows us to detect movements of substances, doping agents or doctors who are known as doctors who go to training fields, training areas and so on. So we have symbiosis which is being created, which makes it possible to take these networks apart. So if we wanted to define the new forensic approaches that are being used, one could say if you had a definition, for example, for us, what would it be? Well the idea is to broaden the spectrum by collecting multidisciplinary information and no longer focusing only on the results of biological tests as is done in an anti-doping laboratory, just to have a broader picture and give value to this information and to this assessment. So this method comes from the criminal side. Yes, this is forensic intelligence, which involves collecting information about a phenomenon, structuring it and analyzing it in a way that makes it possible for us to come up with a method Of operation of a criminal phenomenon. Here we're dealing with anti-doping. So the idea is to have hypotheses which are based on the information we've collected. This will make it possible for us to come up with intelligence with information that will be useful and that will be timely to be able to define strategies or to define actions that would be as effective as possible. >> If we compare fighting, if we compare this with fighting drugs for example, using the justice system, and if we transpose this to sports, are there methods that can come from that side of things? >> Well yes. Police certainly. Legislation varies of course in different countries depending on doping. Some countries, Italy, Spain for example, where there's criminalization of doping, which makes it possible to implement judicial, police research methods, which is not necessarily the case in other countries. The majority of countries, in fact, that is not the case. We will be giving with a exchange of information, mutual assistance between anti-doping agencies in other countries, but we want to favor this investigation from the police side. This legislation which is becoming more enhance, more expanded to make it possible to share this same celebration and use it in the field afterwards. >> So there's a big difference. Italy and Spain are ahead of other countries which have not yet changed their legislation. It's the trend now to have the legislation evolve everywhere? And if it doesn't evolve, are we going to face a situation where efforts are not on an equal footing? >> Well the trend is towards harmonization for sure. Especially with the 2015 code that stresses these approaches. Governments are more and more aware about this problem. Doping is also a question of health as well. So, it was a trend which is moving in the direction of an improvement of the fight against doping with legislative improvement to legislative text. Now, all athletes are subject to the 2015 code to their all equal before this stipulation. They all follow the same rules, so quite apart from whatever sport you might practice. There are different budgets of course given to anti-doping. Not the same levels of checks and monitoring so this might be more a question of the different budgets. Some federations are bigger than others and have resources that are much more significant than others. Others cannot afford very elaborate anti-doping programs, so I think it's moving in that direction. >> Francois, what are future prospects for anti-doping intelligence or information? We see that what's being stressed is distribution, use, issues related to prevalence in the future. What are the forensic prospects that will help us to take into account these different levels of anti-doping go on to forensic level? >> We will be looking at a number of different aspects of the production distribution and chain of the doping substances as a whole series there. Yes, we have some seizures here for example of anabolic steroids injected or tablets. You're talking about seizures by custom services in Switzerland, for example? But this can happen in any country. Yes, these are seizures by custom services imported by individuals seized by customs and sent to a sterile dietary supplements of all types. They don't necessarily contain doping substances but we do have to analyze them because the composition is not well regulated of these dietary supplements so there may be cases involving contamination. So the prospects. The prospects are to understand where do these substances come from? What are the distribution pathways? What are the users? What are the fashionable ones? Which sports use them? So in order to do this, we have a number of different methods. We're going to be able to carry out what we call strategic internet monitoring. So what we do is we go on the internet. Then we look at all of the online sales and all of the networks that refer to these products forums and so on to inform the users and the distributors. This helps us to understand over time. Which substances are the fashionable substances? Are there new ones that are coming up and that the laboratories are not familiar with? We have to develop analysis methods, testing methods. That is often the case. Or else, are some of them, all of a sudden, obsolete. This helps us understand their prevalence, the flow. >> Well, when you identify a substance, do you warn the customs services? Do you get in touch with the police? >> Yes, we can have an exchange of information at various levels. We can inform customs services and say be careful, if you see such and such a substance going through, it is used as a doping agent. There's a prevalence all of a sudden and we'd like to understand the phenomenon a little bit better, have a better idea of the distribution over time and geographically, same thing with the police. So we will tell the police if during searches or seizures you find this kind of substance, hold onto them, we're interested them because these are doping agents. So there's an exchange information there. We could also think about having an exchange of information with the federations to alert them to this that in certain substances might come up. We have crossed information sometimes, crossed data, often information is supplementary, complementary rather, they don't know that it's complementary information so a sort of a platform for exchanging information to be able to have a pretty good overview of a situation which is increasingly complicated. >> Now, distribution, say, through customs or what you are doing. Are these Individuals who go and buy and use these substances, are you talking about resellers? Are you talking about criminal groups? Is it the pharmaceutical industry that is involved here? Who's behind distribution of the substances? >> Well that's a very important question. We think, we don't think we're mistaken there, that it's similar to what you find in the world of drugs and drug abuse that you're going to have. Pharmaceutical industries involved in, you've got the official ones producing medicines because very often these doping agents are actually pharmaceutical products that will be diverted. Than there can be clandestine manufacturing facilities, copying a product or putting on the market a prohibited product and then you have these mini home drug labs. In other words, a hobby chemists who has a lab in the basement who was going to be producing the substances for people around him, for example. Now as far as distribution, well once again, the customer methods used for counterfeit drugs. There are two approaches, either they will be physical transport of the substances, where the substances will go from a dealer to a client, for example. But the major trend today is online because someone who sends you a package It's a very low-risk situation if they send you a package through the Internet. So, I think that that is the most simple, that is the most common method used today. Now we also know that some people go and order in large quantities these substances, and then they turn into a sort of a pharmacy by distributing these to friends and so on. So, there are many different methods. Let me just put it this way. The flow is very complex. Now, a user doesn't know whether it comes from official pharmaceutical industry, from a mini home drug lab or semi-official. There's no indication about the content of the substance. Well, as you can see here, we've got some substances. Let me show you one here. And in this one, well, it's difficult to imagine that it actually comes from a laboratory which is other than a clandestine one because the substance is in an audio cassette plastic case, no label, nothing. So you can imagine that this is something that was cooked up in a lab in the basement somewhere. And then the other substances, perhaps this one here where there's proper packaging, there's a kinegram, there's a bar code, there's a series number and here we're dealing with basically an industry that's going to a little bit more trouble perhaps. So there are many different cases, many different situations and in the forums, people talk about the products. They say, I tried this one out. It has this effect, it has secondary effects, no secondary effects, no side effects. So many discussions, in fact, are generated by the use of these substances. But what's incredible I find is that there's a distribution, but there are users who trust the substances enough to be able to inject them without knowing what's in them. What about, is this discussed as well in the forensic approach? Do you look at this? Well, we look at all methods of production and distribution. Here, typically, with this audio cassette plastic case, this is obviously a clandestine laboratory. It has a criminal type activity. Then you have pharmaceutical industry gangs producing, not for doping, but their stocks are being diverted. The approach is completely different but, indeed, it is true, what you're saying is true. The athletes take considerable risks because they are taking all sorts of things, anything and everything. And when we carry out an analysis of some of these substances, we realize that You can find anything and everything in these substances, all sorts of stuff there and not necessarily what is depicted on the label. So, there's a market which is extremely uneven and very dangerous for the end user. It's surprising that people trust a forum or they trust a distributor that they might know. Or another athlete, perhaps, that's how things are done? Well, yes, these are practices which are hidden. They're criminal in nature and it will be difficult for them to go to a doctor to ask them questions about how can I have a greater muscle mass or better endurance and so on. What does an athlete do in that case? Well, they go to circles of people who are these, in some cases, are father figures in a sense. It's like a paternal authority figure. Sometimes in fitness centers, people who have this father figure for the neophytes or just starting out in this and they trust them absolutely. No if we look at these prospects of distribution, use of the substance, we get the feeling that they separate the bioanalytical conventional aspects of anti-doping. Can you put these two approaches together in some way? Well that's the point, we don't do this just to have an understanding of the market. This understanding of the market will make it possible for us to develop more suitable means. If we determined that a new product has hit the market, we're going to be able to develop new analysis testing methods. It's extremely important for us because we're going to be able to react as swiftly as possible. If you think, for example, of the Olympic games where the samples are kept for a number of years, that's one of the reasons why we do this, because we hope that one day we'll be able to discover a new substance that was on the market but unknown. All these substances are not necessarily registered. Many of them exist nowhere. They're not on any list, so we're not familiar with them. We don't know them. So through this market survey, we can say, this particular one does exist now. I have to go back in time now, look at my samples to try to determine whether athletes were taking it back then at the time. So this is very important, I think. It's also important to understand that they're not easy to analyze or to test for. So they develop, for analytical methods, for blood and urine testing can take a very long time. So it's good to have this information as early as possible, so you're saving time, you're standing by, and this way you can react very swiftly. Indeed, we are much more effective in terms of fighting this scourge when we have an understanding of the market. [MUSIC]
