-So we've talked about some, some, roughly speaking, some Whitmanians and
some Dickensonians. It's a false binarism; both poets are
important--they're foundational--but we've, we've sort of roughly divided at
least temporarily some of these poets into two, and I'm really curious to know what
your responses are to these two different kinds of strategies.
You can, you're, you're certainly welcome to state your preferences, in the crudest
way that you want to. Max, where are you at this point?
-Well, whereas I was initially on the Dickensonians side.
I think, with these poets, I'm more of the
Whitmanians. -Because?
-Persuasion... Because, I mean, frankly "In a Supermarket in California" was my
favorite of the bunch that we read this week, And, I think it's, it's more, if
anything, it's toeing the line a little bit better between... or balancing
better the sort of meta-poetics, the sort of "ars poetica" moments, and, and sort of
gestures to the outside world, ... to society...
-The social content .-Yeah.
-I prefer, I prefer that little bit of... Not a little bit...
I mean, there's a lot, obviously, here in Ginsberg...
-Are you implying though, that, that Niedecker and Armantrout
don't have social content? -No.
-I certainly, I certainly think that they do, ...
-But you like it to be more overt. -Yes.
I think there is a little bit more, criticism and, well... Well, now you're
making me question this! -That's okay.
That's what I'm supposed to do. -There is, there is definitely in, at
at least in, in Niedecker... there is plenty of mischief and,
and, and implicit critique as well, but I do find it more resonating...
better for me in Ginsberg. -Molly, do you think that our responses
to these two styles or approaches is gendered?
-Ooh...! -You didn't know I was going there...
-I didn't. I had something else prepared.
That's a question for Ann Maris. -I... I don't...
-That is to say, what, you know, the topic we were just talking about with Max,
which is their social content. -Maybe not in Corman, but in...
-Sure. -But in all the others.
There's social content, but it's worked a different way from Niedecker.
There is really a climate of lovely radical economic refusal, and a real
remaking of the way we think of life and work, there.
It's very radical. -Sure.
-But it's an inward turned poem. And Max prefers the...
-You know, Allen and Walt wandering around criticizing the suburbs.
Sorry I didn't mean to... -It's true.
-But, but so do I. -I, I don't think ...
-Okay. -So it's not gendered, in this sense.
-Yeah. I think it's almost an introverted and
extroverted type of issue. -Yes I think that "extensive" is a great
word for Whitman, and "intensive" is a great word for Dickinson.
Ally, your thought on the gendering? -Yeah.
Just [inaudible]. I think it's interesting, kind of taking
that frame and applying it to the Dickinsonian versus Whitmanian traditions.
Because one of the things that struck me, is that, with,
Ginsburg and William Carlos Williams, you feel more. You feel more almost the
pastiche [?] Or the, y-, you know, really, you see
obviously with Ginsburg, explicitly. Like, "I see you there", Whitman, but
also very much in smell. Whereas, with meeting Niedecker and a
bunch of these other ones, you can trace it back to a
Dickensonian, kind of precedent. But at the same time, it feels very much
more...you know...it feels more inherent to that specific
poetry... -I think you're saying, in part,
that the Whitmanian tradition is very locked into the tradition.
And that the so-called Dickensonian tradition really feels fresh, and makes
itself along the way. -Yeah, so, like, you know, in a gendered
sense, then, it's maybe a female role of kind of rejecting tradition.
Where as, you know the two, and Cid Corman doesn't fit neatly
into this, but, Williams and Ginsburg are both... kind of, you know,
toasting, this male tradition. -Interesting.
Anna where do you want to go with this? -I'm so really in for what Ally just said.
That was so interesting, ... -I mean for me I, I, I'm kind of more
with Max in that I responded more to Williams and...
...Ginsburg. -Ginsburg.
Just because, in terms what I like to read and what I respond to, is language and
love... I like the celebration, the
exhuberance of language, in both Williams and Ginsburg.
What I appreciate so much about Niedecker, and, and Armantrout, and, and Cid Corman,
is their way, is their ability to, to condense, I guess.
Where Ginsburg prefers to be a little, more, extensive and expansive.
I, I do appreciate the way that they've been able, to...
-Well it's good thing you like condensation, because that's
where we're going... -It is...
-...in this course, as we move into chapter 2.
Kristin, what do you want to do with any of this?
-I guess I'll come back to Armantrout, since she was the last one we just did.
But I, I really, really enjoy the way that she, uses.
...these images. And it's kind of, like, you know?
In "Supermarket in California", Allen Ginsburg says he's shopping for images.
Well, Armantrout is too. But I really like the way that she puts
them together. And that they're, they're.
It's like parataxis. Like, they're together, but they shouldn't be.
-And we have to kind of figure out what,
what the purpose of that is. -Interesting, because there's parataxis in
the Whitmanian list. -Mm-hm.
-You know, of all the items that Ginsburg finds in the supermarket.
-It's [inaudible] -But it's not...
-Yeah... -A crucial compositional process the way
it is in Armantrout. So in a way, you're saying, yeah there's
parataxis on both sides of this binarism. But it's on the Dickinsonian side that it
really gets worked out as a matter of form.
-How's that, does that sound right? -Yes.
-That's pretty good. That's a really good point. Dave?
-Briefly, about the gender issue, I think it's interesting that in the poems
that are written by men, there's seems to be an underlying theme of alienation.
And in the poems by women, there's a sense of control, to form.
In that sense, the sort of flip-flopping that gender role stereotypes.
But. -The poet controls what she can control,
right? And does it with power, Dickensonian classic.
One of the most powerful poets we have,
who controlled the environment of her brain and the immediate environment where as
when you go out into the social space you get all the frustrations of Ginsburg,
Ginsburg feels because as the extensive...
and "Type A-ish" that he is, he can't actually make much of a dent in a world that causes
alienation. -I also don't think there's any problem
in not taking sides. I think both of these different modes of
approaching poetry are fine. I feel like I would sometimes prefer a
beer with the Whitmanians, and sometimes a fine wine with the Dickinsonians.
-[Laugh]. -Nothing wrong with that.
-Hey, wasn't that little trope at the end
gendered in itself? The beer, the beer with the Whitmanians
-[Laugh]. -Which way does your point, your beer point
tonight Dave Poppler? Down to the tavern [Laugh].
-Who's playing? -Ann Maris, do you want to crack the gendered
question? -I mean, I think that all the poets show
confrontation with various culturally manufactured modes of being.
And so, Whitman and Ginsberg come from that with more of... their overt
expressions of sexuality as queer poets. Whitman was interrogating his suburban
role as a father. But I think that what's admirable in
Niedecker and Dickinson was that (well, I have to disagree a
little with Max)... I think they were, there is an implied and
very powerful social critique in place in their poems in that they're carving a new
space for women. And this...
what we'd maybe even triivialized before, poem-making from a female perspective, is
here given the legitimacy and the power, and the influence of a "trade" in the
Niedeckerian sense, and an "ocuppation" in the Dickinsonian sense,
bring it back to Armantrout. That little girl grew up into a woman, who
was able to bring all these voices together.
Make an identity for herself. -To bring together, and allow them to
stand... ...differently.
-Yes. -Yeah, that's terrific.
Emily, our resident genius. -[Laugh] Thanks...
Al FilreisKelly Professor, Dir. Center for Programs in Contemporary Writing, Faculty Dir. Kelly Writers House
