This course will examine the music industry in the United States, with the unique perspective gained by Vanderbilt University’s location in Nashville, TN. Nashville is a major center of music in the United States, and the music created here has a global reach, particularly in the country, rock, pop, singer-songwriter, and Americana genres. However, students will learn that the basic principles of recording, marketing, copyright, licensing, and live performance are the same, regardless of musical style or genre. The music business is one of the most rapidly changing industries in the US today. It is also an industry filled with contradiction, and media headlines and anecdotal stories often add to the confusion. Here are just a few statements paraphrased from recent news stories: * The music business has collapsed * Demand for music is expanding at the greatest rate in history * Historic recording studios are closing at an alarming rate * More people are making recordings than ever before * Musicians usually lose money touring * Musicians usually make money touring * Major artist pulls songs off streaming services because they don’t pay fairly * Major artist makes a fortune from streaming services * People won’t buy records anymore * Vinyl record sales are soaring This course will attempt to make sense of these seemingly contradictory trends and data, outline the basic structure and mechanisms of today’s music industry, and encourage students to think critically and entrepreneurially about the future of music. Leaders from various areas of the music business will lend their perspectives through in-depth interviews, and footage from a recording session will give learners a behind the scenes look at how a song goes from the spark of an idea hummed into a cell phone to a finished recording. Participants will grapple with questions about art and commerce which are both timeless and crucially important today, and will emerge from this course with tools allowing them to make more informed decisions as creators, promoters, and consumers of music. Course launches February 19, 2016.
Interview: Doug Howard
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来自 Vanderbilt University 的课程
Understanding the Music Business: What is Music Worth?
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从本节课中
Copyright & Publishing
In this module, learners will wade into the complicated world of music copyright and publishing. Interviews with an executive from a performing rights organization and another music school dean with a background in publishing and intellectual property rights will help to decipher the world of publishing- and sound recording-related royalties and the question of public domain. The question of fair payment to songwriters is one of the most hotly contested issues in the music industry today, and you will think critically about how value is assigned to compositions in different media environments. What is a song worth?
与讲师见面
Jen GundermanAssistant Professor of Musicology
Blair School of Music
[MUSIC]
I'm here today with Doug Howard who is the Dean of the Mike Curb College
of Entertainment and Music Business here at Belmont University in Nashville.
Doug, thank you so much for sharing your time today.
>> It's great seeing you.
>> You have a law degree, a business degree, and one of the most interesting
and varied careers in the music business of anybody that I know.
You've worked both for small independent publishers,
for large music publishers, for large record companies, for
small record companies, and now you're a university administrator,
so I'm really looking forward to hearing your perspective.
I think I want to begin with a big question for you, which is what are some
of the, you've had a long career, successful career in the business,
were surrounded by Platinum records here actually and
I wonder about your just sort of overarching view of how you've seen
the business change over the years that you've worked in music.
>> The changes I've seen really I think technology is always
on everybody's front page, front burner, and that's what everybody talks about.
But ultimately if you really think about the business, the story,
the song, that hasn't changed.
And what drives the entire business to me is still the creative process.
Now the delivery system has changed, but hey that is something that
every generation has dealt with from the guy playing a piano on a river boat
to somebody doing a download or a stream today.
So for me, as much as it's changed what I'm about and
what I encourage whether it's our students or people I work with,
is just focus on the story, focus on the song, that's the bigger picture for me.
So in reality, how's that for a horrible answer?
The things that have changed are always going to change.
But the things that remain constant are the things that matter.
>> Distribution might change.
The way you listen might change.
>> They will always change.
You know that.
And honestly, the hardest thing for me today, is not, it's, I'm not intimidated,
but it is truly keeping up.
And there's certain clipping services or whatnot where I try to read every morning
before I come to the job, come to the university.
I love to read what's happened in the last 24 hours.
Now, I don't know if that's a great historical perspective in terms of well,
I've lived about 40 years in the music industry but to have that daily input, so
that I can talk to students and I really, really, really stress from them.
Now that might be a change at least on the education side.
I think in the past,
it was all this streaming down of this information, this knowledge I have.
And I encourage and I work with 18, 19, 20 year olds and
I ask them to bring that knowledge to the classroom.
And the new technology,
because honestly, they're bringing things that I don't even know about.
But as soon as they bring it in to me and I'm kind of the wise guy,
you know what I'm saying.
I'm the guy that then takes it up the hill and goes why aren't we using this?
But it's really, that might be a bigger change in the education side, is so
much of information is coming to us from the students.
>> That's interesting.
Do you think that, that is different than it used to be because
the change is happening at a more rapid rate right now?
>> That, and that really, there are actually things changing.
Because if you really think about it, when I looked
at the traditional music business program, really the things like copyright law,
you really that is knowledge like studying any type of law or business that really
a technical large body of work that changes, but changes glacially.
>> Yes.
>> If I can say that word.
It's just a slow change.
Whereas daily the technology things are changing.
And in fact, like Pandora yesterday, reported their third quarter earnings, and
they're lost over 90 million or something, and
the stock just dropped about a third yesterday.
Every day something's happening.
I want to know about that, don't want to be embarrassed, and
I really want to live up to the expectation of students.
They're bringing knowledge up again because they're actually
using something on their phone or their home studio or
what not I think I have the responsibility to maybe to encourage and
engage them to be reading like I'm reading not just your textbooks.
Again, that will work for a copyright law class or
maybe an electronics manual on how to wire certain things.
But when it comes to what's going on in the world, responsibility for
them is to really be a student daily of what happened in the last 24 hours.
>> I like the idea that there are some things that change not at all,
some things, like the inspiration for song or the creative moments, some things
that change slowly, some things that change rapidly and sort of keeping all of
that in perspective is an important part of succeeding I guess in the business.
It sounds like that's what you are saying.
>> Well, in another way it's so funny.
My years, whether it was in publishing or labels.
When everything almost seems to get too much.
Too much information.
Too much, too much.
You know what I'm saying?
>> Mm-hm. >> And everybody,
well what are we going to do?
And I would always go, we're going to tend our garden.
because what am I about?
If I was a publishing company I was totally about developing the writers
providing them with a environment.
Providing with hopefully enough money where they didn't have to have another job
to develop them.
I was not to worry about how it was going to be distributed because really it
was out of my control.
But again, going back to that story, that song,
if we're doing great work, we have done our job and
I know that might simplify it but tend your garden, is just my mantra.
And it really, really helps cut away.
And it's the same thing I think, any kind of mission statement that a business has.
When I worked for Disney, or Andy and I had known each other for years, and years,
and years, and met both at Lipscomb and at Belmont, we met while we were studying.
He was in a band.
Loved his band, so we had a relationship going into this.
He had been at RCA for years, I had been at Polygram.
But when we came together to work at Disney, I mean literally,
the first thing we did after we got a chair and a phone, because that's
how stripped down it was, we sat down and started working on our mission statement.
And ironically, those first eight,
ten people that were employees of the Disney label here, all had a great
amount of input into how we saw what is truly our mission statement.
And boy, if you define it early on, it makes your life so much easier because
you look at it and go, one August isn't mainstream country and blah blah blah.
We need to pass I mean it's just defines what you do.
Do you know what I'm saying?
And that's my tend your garden,
it's really you know in your heart what you're mission.
What I'm supposed to be doing here and
you cannot distract by all the other outside junk.
And I think we're all in essence problem in our industry right now.
We are all raving every day about, we're not getting paid.
I truly believe great stories, great movies, somebody's making money.
You know what I mean?
But it's the great stories, great songs, it's the great rises to the top.
And that's what I still instill that in my students.
Let's be great, let's not be good, let's be great.
Boy, I'm getting off the subject.
>> No, I don't want to, I don't think so anyway.
>> Okay. >> What I hear you saying is that knowing
yourself, and knowing what your business is going to be about and defining it very
clearly is central to success regardless of whether you're in publishing or
at a label or you're a songwriter?
>> I believe that and if I go back to and
again I can't give you countless lessons but
I just had great teachers, great, great teachers.
The first big mentor for me was a guy named William G Hall,
Bill Hall, a Texan who was Jack Clement's partner in publishing.
And then Bill bought all that out, and I went to work.
And if I look at the staff, songwriters rather, the songwriting staff,
did you know almost every one of them is now in the Hall of Fame?
And Dickey Lee, Bob McDill, Wayland Holyfield, Don Williams,
Reba McEntire, Ricky Scaggs, these are amazing writers and artists.
And the thing is, though,
Bill made it very clear to me as a young publisher why I was there.
And it was to serve their needs because
everything what they're doing was why we had a building, why we had a studio.
And it's kind of good perspective, I think, for music executives or
entertainment executives to really realize that the creators,
they're the ones that matter.
Bill often guided his writers.
Anytime you make a decision to do something else,
something's going to suffer.
That was called opportunity cost.
So when a songwriter that's having hit after hit after hit decided
I'm going to start producing records.
Well, that is great, but I know, I can not remember
a case in my career where the writing didn't suffer, you know what I'm saying?
Where they just didn't have the time.
They were exhausted at the end of the day.
I know that one of my heroes, again Bob McDill, Country Music Hall of Fame writer,
31 number one songs, just a brilliant great guy.
And he had this one little dance in the production early in his career.
And later, I literally asked him.
I said, Bob all these guys are producing.
Why aren't you? And he goes, Douglas,
my writing, my writing just dropped.
It wasn't that he wasn't writing everyday.
I just think it was the effort and the energy he was spending.
And so, again, I'm just preaching that again, I think, that focused approach.
Now, can you do everything today perhaps, but I do think if you find
that niche that you're just great at, that's different for a writer-artist.
Someone that really spent their lifetime wanting to be on stage and
they go out and do it.
And I know you work with someone just like that.
But that's the real unique individual,
somebody inspired to be that writer-artist.
And we have those in our industry, obviously.
But I have traditionally been with a lot of people that really, one or
the other, you know what I'm saying?
But if they got outside those little parameters and became producers, and
managers, and everything else, sometimes they crumble.
[MUSIC]
>> I feel like I know a lot of people in the business who don't maybe appreciate or
understand their own strengths best.
What do you say to students?
How can you find the thing that you're really good at?
You find brilliant writers who want to be on stage,
or performers who really work best aside people.
How do you know when you've hit upon a thing that is really yours?
>> That's a toughy and I just think, and you probably could answer it,
I think we all could.
But the old Joseph Campbellisms of following your bliss.
It's kind of like I think that's the best thing I could say to someone.
I'm also a spiritual guy,
and I just really do believe that certain gifts you are given.
And, ironically, sometimes recognizing it is the hard part.
But, you know what I mean, I do believe following your bliss,
just what makes you, what you're not tired, you want to keep working on it.
And I know, I hope that's just not too bland of an answer, but
I just know I have found.
Before I came to Belmont as dean, I've been on the advisory board here for
20 years and I've also been involved in the mentoring program.
And it's amazing that the reason I do it really is
I was that student 30, 40 years ago.
I was a music business student at Belmont.
I was one of the early, early folks to come through the program.
I sat in the chairs, I heard people come in and talk about it.
I just love music, I was so into music.
But, really, I learned to engineer.
Again, every path I went down led to another, but ultimately, in my heart,
following my bliss, it was working with songwriters.
I still think there's nothing better than hearing a song
just after it's been finished and the writer's got all that energy and
God given thing that just happened, a creation.
And they play it that first time.
After that, it's not as fun for me, you know what I'm saying?
But I love that and I knew that that's where I wanted to go with that.
Going back to mentoring students, I found by just having these kind of discussions.
And often, they'll have a list of people that are looking for mentorships and
I used to pick somebody that I thought I could tell they hadn't figured out yet
exactly where they wanted to be.
And, again, first of all, I would talk like I am now.
But by the second or third meeting, all of a sudden,
the talking was coming back at me, you know what I'm saying?
It opened those doors of passion.
And by the end, normally, it was like,
yeah I think, I don't want to do this, I want to do this.
And so, I don't know if it's something that can be taught as much as
just what I'm saying, just an awareness of what really touches your heart.
And you're going to have friends.
I think the toughest thing for entertainment students,
music business students, film students, sometimes your peers and
your parents, if they don't get it, they don't get it.
You know what I'm saying?
Sometimes, they're not going to be very supportive or what's plan B?
What's plan B?
And I know everybody thinks you need a plan B, but hey,
sometimes it's nice if you don't because you are so impassioned about this.
And, then, whether it's Vanderbilt, whether it's Belmont,
if you do go to university and say you get a real knowledge of the industry,
you can take that knowledge to any industry.
As long as graduates are coming out of here.
The overused word of critical thinking.
What I just really like to just say, just be able to think, you know what I mean,
on your feet.
Hey, something just fell or we got to fix this.
Be able to really think.
And beyond that, again, as a program that even though we're teaching
technical skills to our audio guys and music publishing and copyright to music
business, and on and on down the line, I preach from the day they get on campus.
First of all, from the day you're at Belmont,
they'll treat you like a professional.
And, therefore, you're competing, not with grandmother or
your high school class, you're competing with the charts.
You're competing with the films.
>> Right. >> Your stories are now competing
on a world basis.
And then the second thing that I start off first time I talk to the students
is just the aspect of integrity.
And, for me, I was blessed to go to work for men and
women with integrity when I left here.
And, at first,
you're thinking you've heard myths about the industry or what you gotta be like,
but what I've found, the people that survived are those that you can depend on.
They pretty much do what they say they're going to do.
And you know what I'm saying?
And you can come back, and back, and back again.
And I know in my own life I got a major,
major job because songwriters told some folks they needed to call me.
>> That's it.
That's been my experience, too.
I mean, because you can't, business isn't that big.
>> It's not.
>> That you can go around hurting people, and
it doesn't eventually come back and get you.
>> And it's just what is the right way to live?
Because, again, what we are, we are blessed getting to do this.
And totally, I'm going to go off, but
I have told, in my heart, several songwriters that,
some of them represented in the room, that I really felt, because of my passion for
music, I was put in my job, not about me, it was about them.
Because I was going to be the guy who was going to sign them, and
do you know what I'm saying?
>> Mm-hm. >> And so, well, that turns it around, but
again, it goes back to my Bill Hall philosophy about why I was,
Doug, why you're here.
It's because of the people right down the hall, you know?
>> Yeah.
I love the way that you talk about songwriters, in particular and
I think there's something.
I'd like to ask you about this particular love for songwriting that resides here in
Nashville, I think, that you represent so well.
What do you think it is about Nashville that we love our songwriters so much?
>> Man, it must be it's in the DNA, genetic.
I really do think these melodies that have been floating around in Ireland and
England and Western Europe, who knows from all around the world.
But you know what I'm saying?
I do think that it's almost like when you're just old enough to
rise your head up and you hear a melody.
I honestly believe you know when you got hooked.
I'm not going to embarrass myself about when, but
I was really young when I just got totally obsessed with music.
And I think, like somebody described it once as a tribe, I'm in that tribe.
And from just childhood through junior high,
through high school, I would go home for lunch and listen to records.
You know what I'm saying?
And I think the interesting development generationally, again, a lot's timing,
but when you grow up with the Beatles being the first thing that you really,
really studied, and then it just blows up from there.
Some of the best songwriters that have come through pop music as we
travel that journey, my journey kept leading back to Nashville whether you were
listening to something and go, man, that sounds familiar.
They go, yeah, that's an Everly's lick or that was something that
the Beatles picked up from an Everly's thing, or a Chet Atkins lick.
And it was funny.
And then about the time I was older and was playing myself, then all of a sudden,
you had the Kristoffersons and things popping out of Nashville.
And I'll be honest with you, some Billy Sherril records.
Now, he both as a writer and a producer.
But somehow, he was getting things, my gosh,
that I'm a 16 year old, listening to country radio.
And that was a shocker.
>> [LAUGH] >> Well, you know what I'm saying?
It was just like I was a metal head, and the next thing I know that, God, these
songs, they've got a, I like where they're coming from, you know what I'm saying?
There's a maturity to them and I didn't think about that.
And it was so real life, and I do think over the years I love so
many people that I've been involved with are Texans and
a ton of guys that I have been involved with had been from Memphis.
And I think all the feeding from Arkansas,
Mississippi into, and Alabama >> Yeah, that happens at Memphis and
all the other stuff that ends up in Texas,
there's just something in the water, you know what I'm saying?
And again, so, as I drift here, I want to tell you something, though.
Because on that point, I do believe that and it's so funny because I
loved having the opportunity to get to know Sam Phillips.
And when you look at just changing the world, the guy changed the world but
the one day just we were talking and
I could see he was a little frustrated with me.
And he started preaching.
And I don't know if you know, but he could preach.
And he preached.
>> I've heard recordings, yeah.
>> But he literally got in my face.
And he just, Douglas, what you guys in Nashville don't understand, man?
If I just ripped up this concrete man, it would baptise you man.
It's in the water.
>> [LAUGH] >> It's in the soil.
And I took a lot of that to heart because I really grew up near Memphis.
That spirit of cotton fields, that spirit of work,
that spirit of just what has journeyed up and down the Mississippi River.
Every musical form now that we look at that became rock and roll, all that stuff.
And I think, somehow, as it came out of the east mountains and
stuff from Bristol into Nashville, I think there's just been this,
some kind of an incubator to where there have been battles.
You think about you couldn't have an electric guitar at the Opry or something.
And then Will the Circle Be Unbroken happened, and all of a sudden,
guys were talking to each other generationally.
I just think it continues to be a place where writers are appreciated,
as opposed to the industry, if that makes sense.
And a guy from Atlanta, who I'm not going to say, but
he, well, I'll just say his name's Pierce Pettis, who's been an independent
artist forever, but I signed him at one point and had some success.
The kid had a Garth cut.
Never really had a lot of commercial cuts and he got a Garth cut.
But he told me, he said, man, in Nashville, it's so funny because here,
if you're carrying guitar case, people open doors for you.
And he said, I go to a lot of places where they throw you a dollar.
And, you know what I mean, that the perception of who you are and
what you do is so different.
And I think in Nashville it's loved.
>> I would love to pick up on that passion that you've got for songwriters and
ask you some questions about what you hear in the media today about
songwriters being treated unfairly.
I'm sure, I know that you have a lot of expertise in copyright law and
intellectual property and wonder what your take is on, I guess, first of all,
some of the recommendations that were made by the US Copyright Office in early 2015,
and specifically the Songwriter Equity Act.
What do you think about that?
>> I'm telling you, I probably won't answer this exactly how you want me to,
but first, I would like to say that I am so fortunate to be married to
one of the foremost intellectual property attorneys in Nashville,
Linda Ebell Howard and so I don't have to do my homework as much because I can just
ask, you know what I'm saying, and I don't get billed.
But I"m being very serious.
It's like, hey, Linda, what's this?
What is this?
I'm going to back, I'm not going to exactly answer the question.
I'm going to try to back into this by just saying that this is just something that
I believe with all my heart, and that is, when I was a student at Belmont University
back in the late 70s, there was a huge copyright revision that occurred.
And it's so interesting that I didn't really at the time.
Again, as I reflect on my students now and everything that's going on, and
how they're trying to do things, I don't know if everybody comprehends just all
the complexities of what's going on and how long it takes to get things through.
>> Mm-hm. >> But I just know back in the 70s,
I did study that reform and was acutely aware of what's going to happen.
And then, at the end of the day, when I started my career,
they had just raised the statutory rate.
And then all the people, they're like, we're going to go broke and they extended
the term of the copyright, which again, I was like, what are you doing?
And all I can say is, from the point of view of taking care of the creator,
what ended up happening is where our sales were as an industry, again,
around 1980, just went up, up, up, up, up, up really to 2000,
and that's when the digital revolution started happening.
And now, those numbers dropped down back to where they were about the time I
graduated, which is amazing to me, that I got to ride that.
But it always has meant to me, that again, when the intent of Congress and
the legislators, everyone realized that protecting the creator will really
protect an industry, you know what I'm saying?
Again, going back, all the technologies are going to change, all these company
names that I could go x, y, z, whatever, they're all going to continue to change.
But that original creator,
that story where we're building a whole industry, is what we need to protect.
Do I want to say that loudly so that people hear me?
Yes, but in a room with so many voices, it's hard to get that message out.
So, ultimately, I guess with all, I'm optimistic,
I'm totally optimistic But at the same time, there's always going to be
a lag I think between what is recognized as something that needs to be fixed,
and so there's always going to be a price to pay.
Does that make sense?
>> Yeah. >> I don't know if I answered you because
I just really look from a historical perspective of If we do the right thing,
what does that mean?
Protect the copyright owners, protect the creator and
I don't know why that just isn't well, because we can't afford to.
Why? Because our model is based on your music,
but we can't afford to pay you because we don't have enough ad
revenue at this point.
The arguments go on, and on, and on.
So I just like to be easy, simple.
Let's not confuse the issue,
we just have to continue to find ways to protect the creator.
>> Are you saying that it makes good business sense to pay a songwriter?
>> Absolutely, absolutely, and it always really has.
And again, these are- >> For everybody involved?
>> For everybody.
Well, because again, I think, honestly,
What do you lose, do you know what I'm saying, with that Vanderbilt.
I remember somebody once in a class said, how do you measure a lost sale?
Meaning a guy came into your store, and it's kind of like, well golly,
man you don't have socks anymore, and they just walk out.
Well how do you measure that, you know what I'm saying?
And I think there's so many things of what ifs, what not,
I think there will always be creators, but I don't think the infrastructure.
Like I said, I really don't want someone
to have to go back to having someone lofty
have you up in the apartment painting the ceiling, you know what I'm saying?
Or creating music for the church or something, you know what I'm saying?
A livable wage, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm just talking about fairness in the marketplace.
And again, when you divvy up the numbers and you really do see if a record goes top
five, top ten, or if a record is streamed or scanned so many times.
Truly look at the numbers, you know what I'm saying,
that people have earned, to get down to that stream.
And again, even if you just flip this gets you in trouble, but even if you just flip
the performer side to the writer, you know what I'm saying?
>> Yeah. >> The true reason that's all working that
song, it's horribly unfair, you know what I'm saying?
And by unfair again, everything we're saying is going to get so
dated so quickly, and that's why I'm really hesitant to go down this road.
>> I understand.
>> But you know, just with the court ruling about what BMI
was going to receive, you know what I'm saying.
The 2.5% you know in terms of that was more of
a market based kind of decision that I think people were pretty much happy about.
because for a moment it got out a consent decree, and
it became looking at everybody else and what they were earning.
You know what I'm saying?
>> Mm-hm. >> And
all of a sudden even if you have to write off this much.
>> That's not was I was going to say.
I don't want to say that I totally agree with that judge,
but the irony is anytime a market value can be put into the equation,
it seems to work better, doesn't it?
I'll tell you something crazy.
When we were at a congressional hearing recently my wife was invited to that.
I was invited because I was dating a Belmont.
She was invited because she knows what she's talking about
always about the stuff.
But it was funny when they were talking about bringing more market type of
negotiation into this, she brought up the fact about how it was a rough go,
but karaoke, those rates were negotiated after some real serious battles.
And I know she was involved with some of the major publishing companies,
but we're talking about 12, 15, 16 cents as opposed to 9.
Because of how it's being used.
And that was soft of a free market negotiation between the users and
the publishers.
And- >> So there's a precedent?
>> Yeah, there is!
>> Yeah. >> If people want to listen,
you know what I'm saying?
>> Yes. >> And again,
I'm getting in dangerous territory perhaps but there are lessons and
there are examples and >> Again, but there's so
many players involved and that's where I go back to I'm going to
just be that guy that just continues to say I realize everyone has costs and
issues in getting music to the consumer, but forever I know.
If that model doesn't work, if that streaming model doesn't work,
then go out of business.
Don't go in the back of the writer's.
Don't say we can't pay you your >> Fraction of a cent because we're
going to buy another company.
We're going to go buy this company.
Because we think it's going to make our Bigger and better.
If your model doesn't work, you need to go away and
someone else needs to come up that can really figure out subscription rates and
subscription numbers that are going to work.
And it's going to work.
But it's going to be real real smart subscription based thing.
And truly I don't want to say names, but Apple.
Like always they're kind of sitting back right now and
they've gotten into the game.
And I know you've got some other companies.
But they're in it for the long-run, as they always are.
And they have the cash and capital, so I just think someone with that kind of
cash drawer patience and time, to build, especially something,
when you base it off something like a worldwide iPhone with, how many users?
You know what I"m saying?
And just eventually have that model.
I have always been amazed that someone used to pay 2.99, or
3.99, For a ring tone.
But they were hesitant to pay anything for a song.
I just never really understood that.
You know what I'm saying?
I'm just amazed how much I pay for my Onstar.
So my Onstars great man because in Nashville
you need to know where it's backed up.
So you know I've got that on my GPS.
I pick up a hundred bucks a year for that.
How much do I use it really?
Just when I'm in my car.
My point is, I'm paying that much and
I won't pay a hundred bucks a year for music?
The point is, all these things are going to a place that the writers,
the creators, we just got to hold on while we get there.
Does that make sense?
>> Yes. >> That's why I'm so
encouraged about the future of any type of creator, entertainment,
artist, writer, film.
I'm just going to remain super optimistic because man it drives everything.
Where can you go that people don't like music?
You know what I'm saying?
From the most.
>> Advanced guys like me to the most primitive, [LAUGH].
>> [LAUGH] >> The bottom line is people really,
really still just feed off of music.
Now I think we consume it differently.
We don't like I said, I used to be all about those great speakers and
it was just me and that performance.
I know my daughter's a little more into that line soundtrack of her life.
She's out here doing all kinds of stuff and
somehow she's still going I love that song daddy.
And somehow, even when she's doing ten different things,
the next time we're in the car she can sing the lyric, you know what I'm saying?
So it's just being consumed a little different, I think, but there's still that
super passion, and I know my daughter, telling you, I was a hero.
I was a hero, because I didn't tell anybody I bought Taylor Swift tickets.
You know what I mean?
>> [LAUGH] >> I bought them like eight months in
advance and just didn't say anything.
Man, I wish we could've gone.
Guess what, you and your mom are going, but she's seven years old, and
she's again, not being driven by peers and friends.
She's being driven by, I like that song daddy, you know what I'm saying?
>> Mm-hm.
There's another piece of legislation that's sort of in the pipe right now that
I want to get your take on too, since you had so
many interesting things to say about the Songwriter Equity Act.
>> I didn't really.
>> I thought it was interesting.
>> Okay.
The Fair Play Fair Pay Act is going to, or would, provide a means for
performers to get paid for terrestrial radio air play.
Now I know that a lot of your experience is with the songwriting end of things,
and this is more, on the performer end of things, but I wonder what your take is?
Because both of these pieces of legislation pit people
who are not necessarily natural adversaries against each other,
and in this case radio and record labels are disagreeing and I guess
in the Songwriter Equity Act is publishers versus streaming services really.
So I guess my first question is what do you think of the Fair Play Fair Pay Act?
>> Well, if I was a artist
that was sitting in an apartment somewhere barely making my rent,
and every time I turned on the radio or the TV there was music that I had made in
the 1960s I'd probably be a little supportive of that.
I guess it's just something culturally, and
again I don't preach well, we're the only democratic nation.
I really look at it just from the fact that truly I think
the world has changed, and again if you go to the 50s especially.
Man, a record di mean you could get on the road.
It meant you could sell tickets because we didn't have an infrastructure.
Radio, as great as it was it didn't have
really, ownership rules were so different, right?
You can only have so many stations.
I mean, everything has changed.
When you've got 300, 500 radio stations I see the arguments on both sides,
but it's a different world from when the argument was that it was
just about promoting an artist's music.
Especially when something, who would've dreamed that Smoke Gets in Your Eyes,
or a Motown hit.
You know what I'm saying?
Would still be so relevant not only to people's of our age,
but people- >> Younger than me yeah.
>> My daughter's age.
Yeah, a seven or eight year old and
just go man I've never heard anything like this in my life.
So the point is I think everybody thought it was going to be disposable.
These are little rock and roll ditties, and we'll move on to the next phase, and
the fact that we got something that worldwide still has an impact.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And people can build a format or a radio station.
I mean, really I could just play oldies.
Think about that.
You know what I mean? I don't have to worry about what's
going to be next or who's going to be the big hit.
I can play this music, so obviously I support it.
I just know that like everything else there's just got to be a real shift in how
people think and really the argument's about being a promotional tool only just
doesn't work for me.
[MUSIC]
>> I have another question for you about performing rights organizations.
SESAC recently merged with Harry Fox,
which now I believe gives them the opportunity to collect mechanical
royalties on behalf of their songwriters, which BMI and ASCAP can't do yet.
Do you think that there's going to be change on that front?
Like what's happening with PROs, or is it going to go to music rights organizations,
or what do you see happening?
>> Again, I don't have all the answers, but everything you just said, true.
Meaning everyone recognizes, everyone recognizes.
I think wouldn't it be great for us to just go to one place and
get all this done?
>> Yes. >> But again, just the years and
years of what these organizations really have meant, and
when you think about something like an ASCAp really
at a time when the great purpose ts served.
You know what I'm saying?
The truly great purpose to talk about song writers being protected.
You think about historically how these organizations have come up.
So, for me personally BMI really they came
to town really early on, and they came to protect music and collect music
that some people didn't consider needed protecting, and again that's an opinion.
You know what I'm saying?
But, so historically what these organizations have meant.
Man, it's a relationship, it's family, and
I know my ASCAP brethren, my BMI brethren, my SESAC friends.
The point is there's been a relationship with the writer publishing community that
is so deeply ingrained that as we move these other things I just think
there's going to have to be the respect given.
How it's done I don't know, but yes wouldn't it be just great
with the technology that all of us world wide just we got it in there.
It could be licensed from one place whether it's in a film, whether it's s for
radio, whether it's for record.
That would be the ultimate goal, and on that note even with the technology and
the opportunity to do certain things again, just like everything else not
an evil motive, but not everybody wants to know all this information, and
not everybody wants to just precisely clear about where money is going.
>> Yeah. >> So you know what I'm saying.
I think a lot of the delays are not that we could have these efficiencies, but
sometimes perhaps people benefit from inefficiencies.
And, that's- >> One, non transparency too.
>> Yeah, and again I'm not saying evil mode if I'm just saying it just takes
years of tradition of how it's always been done is a big part of what we do, and
when you're talking about collecting worldwide money think about that,
because you know there's boxes here and there that have collected money that I
don't know exactly, you know what I'm saying?
>> It's missing money.
>> There are bigger issues than just having the technology and the know how,
and you know this, but I'm not saying anything I guess any of our listeners, or
viewers wouldn't know, but there's just sometimes a reluctance to let go
of certain things that have always been.
>> Are you optimistic that the transparency that so
many people are calling for musicians and
songwriters in particular would love to know what's going on with their royalties.
Do you think that that transparency will come?
>> Well, I'm just optimistic about everything having to do with our business.
>> Yeah. [LAUGH]
>> I really am, because the thing about it
is I don't know in the long term like I said especially well,
I personally experienced those efficiencies, maybe not.
But again when I look at my daughter I just think that there's an expectation
that when she wants something online whether it's music, blah, blah, blah.
That it's an instantaneous gratification, which I'm not sure that's good, but
the point is that just like any kind of credit card sale of anything else
around the world I just think technology is here.
Again, it's just we get in to just certain areas that again,
like I said have been government, and a free market.
And I think any time we get into these complications, and again,
the whole copyright act.
The fact we are so
blessed to have something that is protected uz some people don't want that.
You know what I'm saying, but again just the blend of quote
any type of government free market stuff is going to have growing pains and
issues, and again, getting everyone on the same page.
And I don't hold anybody.
I don't see that point guilt.
Getting this information really to a group of people that have to make a decision,
have to vote, and they have constituents in each city.
Before you know it I can't imagine really how we get a lot of things done.
I'm still going to be optimistic though, because I do think, generationally,
everybody that comes in whether they're going to be at radio, congress, or
the creator, whatever.
Generationally again, they're going to have a knowledge and familiarity that we
didn't have because so many of us I still go back to Napster and stuff.
I'm honest.
I lived through all that.
People didn't know what it was, the kids did.
>> Right. >> But
most people making the decisions just didn't have a clue so
they didn't see the club.
>> Yeah. >> They didn't fully appreciate it.
>> Yeah.
>> And so we can admit, I mean, being naive,
or being ignorant, or somewhere in between, has been a big part of all this.
And if we're all honest with each other.
And I mean on every side, I mean every side.
But especially I think maybe some of us.
I'll take some blame to that.
I'll take some blame.
>> [LAUGH] >> But what I mean.
I appreciated it, but when it came so fast.
>> So fast.
>> Yeah. That, you just,
well gosh, can you do that?
And then, yeah.
>> The subtitle for this course is, what is music worth?
And we've sort of been talking about devaluation,
and, maybe temporary devaluation, in music.
You said something earlier about people being willing to pay $2.99 for a ringtone,
but not $.99 for a song.
And I'm wondering how do we get there, maybe, and
I like that you say that you're optimistic about all of it.
But what do you think needs to happen, or
do you think that this is going to, I don't know, shake out, in a good way?
>> Yes, yes, yes, but and this just might be a dream.
I still, still believe that ultimately,
and again, I'm just thinking about again, the distribution system.
How do you get it to the fan and do they buy it?
>> Yes. I really do believe that there
is just a long road.
Because technology changes so fast.
Can we do that?
That's the beauty of it.
Just think about an MP3.
Just the fact that you do it.
And the fact that most music guys again they looked at it and
said gosh, who's going to want that quality?
Because that's one tenth of what we're offering on a CD
in terms of audio quality.
>> Yeah. >> Well that didn't matter, and
then you think about all the, when I was a kid,
did you know I actually taped stuff off the TV?
If the Beatles were doing Something,
because I at least had my cassette of a version before the record came out.
Quality was horrible, but you know what?
I still tried to learn the Harrison lick, or you know what I'm saying?
And when you're using ear buds instead of big speakers, the quality.
So there's so many things when you first look at something, you know what I mean,
that you go away.
Who's going to listen to that, blah, blah, blah?
>> Do you think that sound quality has something to do with
the devaluation of music everything, that people aren't hearing half of the tracks?
>> Well, more than half.
Again, if you think about the dynamics of a recording and
how exciting certain recordings are and if you go back, I'm not a proponent of vinyl.
I loved that it's hanging around because I think it's a great experience and
I love the fact that you had that option.
There's actually 10,000 people that would buy this if I put it out in vinyl.
I love that.
But the dynamics, the warmth, there's debate about that.
But I will say with a great CD, honestly the dynamics can blow you away.
But yes, it is definitely a quality issue.
And I know people have addressed it and people are doing certain forms.
People are doing things about that.
But as the consumer, I just have to say, I don't even know if they know a difference.
And I don't mean that mean, but again I have to go back to a 45 record.
And when you're a 16, 15 year old kid and you put on
a 45 with a speaker that big People rocked Elvis, you know what I'm saying?
>> Right. And so I hate to put it on that.
It could be an element of it, but do you know what I'm saying.
But still, a hits, a hits, a hits, a hit, you know what I'm saying?
>> Yeah. >> Now if I'm listening to the,
I just can't go there.
At one time I did, but I don't tend to say that that's the issue.
Again, who set the value?
And who set it first?
It was free.
It's going to always be hard to compete with free, once somebody said it was free.
And then again, I love Apple, love love.
But when they just, it's going to be $.99.
Well that's what singles cost when I was a kid.
Now, they're not having a press vinyl but still, when you think about
who's getting paid what and then they're going to take a percentage off the top.
They set that, and then with reluctance,
they pop it up to the $1.29 price, you know what I'm saying?
So ultimately, read an article in today, I can't tell you the gentleman's name.
I hate it because it's just a blurb, because I didn't even think about it at
the time, but it was talking about how he's looking at the fan,
his company, and the artist in this relationship about fan funding and stuff.
>> Yeah. >> But his company is actually, the guy
had I think over the course of since 2003 or something he's had 9 Grammy winning
projects based on fan funded stuff, you know what I'm saying?
Now, again, for some of us, if I had ten, 20, 30, 40,000
people that are willing to pay me what I think it's worth and are really there.
Do you see what I'm saying?
There's this huge model about how can we jam out millions of copies at $1 or
$1.29 >> But there might be a model of,
how can I sell ten, 20,000 copies and
somebody just give me a $20 bill each time, you know what I'm saying?
And that's something that, I might be naive, but
I love that model, you know what I'm saying?
And I will come to your house or just region of
the country to play house parties, two times, three times, five times a year.
And so, I just think there's ways,
and I do think when you've got impassioned fans, they'll place that value.
On the mass market, boy I don't know.
When you're trying to really run something up, country radio, or
pop radio, And you're just trying to get the hits up.
But again if somebody is buying multi million units,
well there's a value there too, even if it's $ .99 a unit.
So I don't know if I answered your question.
But I do think that that perception of free, once it was out of the bag and
once we all lost any means of distribution by me handing you a copy,
I have no control over it.
It could be around the world in 24 hours, we're always going to be challenged.
That to me is quite the bigger challenge, you know what I'm saying?
That we might have distribution companies that could actually do it, but there's
going to be pockets of the world that will always Take advantage of the situation.
And I've just talked myself in a circle argument, haven't I?
But as much as I am optimistic.
And like I said, as long as I hand you my copy of my song,
and I have no control over it from that point forward.
That will always be scary.
>> But I think I hear you also saying something that a couple of the other
people that I've spoken with have said, too,
which is that if you can establish a real emotional connection
between the artist that wrote that song and recorded that record,
and the person who wants to hear it, then there will be some kind of I don't know.
A relationship there and a real kind of support will always exist.
It seems like that's- >> I do believe that.
You know what I mean?
And on whatever level it is, that connection with fans.
And I'll be honest.
I think all of us would be willing to, again,
I think it has to do with the right holder.
So again, if you're making this music and
somebody else actually controls your publishing and your right,
as far as what have you recorded, that right to your freedom.
Everything's kind of got a price.
But as a fan I just know people that really engage with artist and
they would be willing to hear the demos and pay for the demos.
They would be willing to hear for lack of a better word just,
again, a concert that no one had access to.
I mean, so the point is a really hard working,
brilliant artist I think with the help of a few tech savvy friends.
I think between merchandise, between limited touring, and
between being very creative with what you made available musically.
I think could have a very lucrative career without the help from big folks.
Now if the music's not good, I'm going to go back to this,
as charming as everything is and the album cover looks great,
ultimately though if you don't have music that is driving that.
And again, is music, what's the worth of music?
Well, let's not do bad music and ultimately, see sometimes the illusion is
when you've got these millions of people that are on, I can get a billion songs.
And it's like yeah, but there's this many that you want to hear.
>> Right.
>> And it's my understanding, not to get totally off the subject, but
it's my understanding as of today, YouTube, 5% of the videos, and
I think it's a billion videos, 5% of the videos are 95% of what is viewed.
And that's probably a good model for about everything if you think about it.
>> [LAUGH] >> The humans might have decided,
5% of the stuff is great, but the rest of it I'm not going to pay this guy,
so it might not have value.
And I got mad because I'd buy an album, you know that argument well,
there's only one hit on the album.
>> Yeah. >> And I paid $10.
So all those, I hated that argument, because I love albums.
And I love someone having a vision.
But if you get burned time and time and time again.
>> True.
>> It's sort of an argument to make, right.
But again, that YouTube number, again,
5% of the videos are 95% of the views might be a really neat thing to go hmm.
Because I'll guarantee those 5% are making serious money from the YouTube folks
in terms of the ad base stuff because that must be just millions of views.
>> [LAUGH] >> And so in some point in time,
millions and millions of views.
>> Right.
[MUSIC]
There's a question that I ask everybody that I've been speaking to which is,
from where you're sitting what is the best thing that our audience or
our learners can do to support music in their home communities,
wherever in the world that might be?
What do you think the best thing is for
a person to do to support the cause of music?
>> Well first, I would just make sure that it's part of education.
I don't care if that's a public school, a private school, or a church.
I think sometimes that's the last place where anybody thinks about, but man,
when you talk to, again, so many people now are music at church.
>> Think about the greatest singers of the 20th century.
>> Absolutely.
And so there's all these things that you have opportunities to support,
be a part of yourself.
I mean, I'll be honest with you, it's a rare thing that if somebody asks for
help, man, most of us on the education side are right there.
>> Yeah. >> So I do think that because I know that
I was somehow blessed to be exposed to great music at a young,
young age and I just think that's a big deal.
Where does it first hit you and how is it going to rewire my brain so
that, you know what I'm saying, I really think it changes everything.
I really do think music gives you a better memory.
I think it really, not all of us are born to do math, but I'm not so
sure it didn't really help in certain ways we think from an early age.
That would be the first thing, and the second,
like I said, I guess I just always encourage people to support live music.
Because, again, on the local level, and again I come from a small town,
on the Fourth of July and others, guys have, we have the Fourth of July band.
>> [LAUGH] >> And
you're just like, my gosh, I love that.
>> [LAUGH] >> You know what I mean?
For almost any event, there will be something celebrated with music.
At Christmas- >> Yeah.
>> Like I said every body gets together on Christmas Eve, and the point is
instilling in someones, again, they don't have to be great singers,
they don't have to be players, they're having a true appreciation.
And again that soundtrack of your life thing,
that concept of just every time we celebrate something, you know what I mean,
there's some kind of a melody attached to it.
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
But the education and then like I said exposure to live music early on,
those would be for me.
All this other stuff it comes, it will come.
In terms of the legislation, the changes in the laws, and things like that.
But having a real, I tell you, and I stress this.
A fear I did have was a time, not that long ago when everybody was
doing boom boxes and they weren't learning instruments,
people were being, it wasn't like you don't have to know how to play,
we can just bang or something and that scared me, it just scared me.
But just being at Belmont for the short time that I've been here, the players that
are coming in here from just 18 year olds that are just, righteous.
>> Mm hm. >> I do believe that we
have a generation coming up of great players, but let's keep that in mind,
but again, that goes back probably to the education side of all that.
>> Absolutely.
Thank you so much for sharing your time today.
I appreciate it so much.
We've been talking with Doug Howard who is the Dean of the Curb College for
Entertainment and the Music Business here at Belmont University in Nashville.
Thank you so much.
>> Absolutely, thank you.
>> Appreciate it. >> It's all right.
[MUSIC]
