[MUSIC] >> How does a collegiate football player decide what agent he would have represent him? My good friend Andy Simms is going to join us. He's going to talk about the characteristics he looks for. He now has the luxury of being able to select those that he wants to represent and vice versa. He's going to play it by the rules. He's not going to engage in any of the pay-to-play scandals that we've heard about. Andy is right down the middle. I think you'll enjoy his discussion of why he represents his NFL players, his strong stable of NFL players, how he represents them. How he takes them through, again, the collective agreement, through and including their free agency years. And perhaps, even most importantly, when they're no longer able to play the game, perhaps get cut. How he continues to manage their careers into other income producing opportunities once the cheering stops. So we're really thrilled that Andy was able to join us. I can't think of a better guide through how to do it right, than Andy Simms. Welcome back we have Andy Simms with us. You have his bio. You know his client list from his website. Welcome Andy, thanks for being with us. >> Appreciate it. >> We're going through the four stages of professional athletes career as it relates to the NFL. And just talking, what, what do you look for when you go to, to try to recruit a, a college athlete, and, and, and maintain a long relationship over the years, through and including retirement? You've been great at that, you have a great track record. What, what are the characteristics you look for as a player agent who has his choice? >> Yeah, in our, in our business the relationship that develops between the, the player and us as the agencies. It's a very unique relationship and I think, you know, probably transcends a lot of other business relationships, it becomes very personal. And I think the services you offer, obviously you need to be able to provide all those things and, you know, from legal marketing all the way down. But the personal relationship is so important and so I think when you're, when you're looking for new clients, when you're in that recruiting phase the key is finding, finding people that are the right fit. And, you know, players, different athletes, whether whatever sport it might be, they're looking for an agent that's a right fit for them. And I think the key is, and I've learned this as times has gone on, we want to find the right fit for us too. And if you don't have the right fit it's not going to last long, it's not going to be fruitful, it's not going to be beneficial. You need to have that connection with the player. So for us finding the right kind of guys that are looking for the types of services and the type of people that we are, is just as important as, as, vice versa, it's gotta go both ways. >> Let's talk about that first contract and, and the rookie contract and the latest CBA we. >> Right. You've been kind enough to be at symposia for us in the past. How has that impacted the representation? What, what kinds of guarantees is somebody like a Clowney looking for if you're the first round, first pick? >> I think the, the new collective bargaining deal, really what it did is it, it, it simplified the process and I'm not saying in, in a good or bad way. But it, it depends who you ask, but what it really did is it took a, it took a system that was a fairly set system and it made it even more set. So, a first year contract the first, you know, contract a player has, a first rounder's looking at a five year, it's a four year deal with a fifth year as an option. Second through seventh rounder are all four year deals now. And so, the amount of each pick is basically set on the signing bonus. The base salaries of the first, second, third, and fourth year are basically set. So, the question is what, what is an agent doing on these deals? There's some variations, injury clauses, known as split provisions, credited season language. Those things can vary amongst teams. There is an ability for off-season bonuses. You can't even negotiate incentives, that's already in there. It's called a it's a set provision which, basically, if you're playing at the 35% level, it would bump up your fourth year salary, known as an escalator. But it's all preset. So the contracts are very set. As far as value goes I think the best way to describe would be, I believe Sam Bradford was the last player to be the first overall pick, in the pre-CBA and his contract was 50 million. I believe, pretty much guarantee it was 50. >> Yeah. >> Cam Newton, I believe was the following year. And, even though that was a few years back, I believe that was right around 24 million. And what we've seen, since that Cam Newton draft, so I guess that was a few years back. That amount is basically flat since, since the deal's been done. So I think we're right around that same 24 million. So, what we've really seen is a, is a, is a pretty drastic reduction in the first round. Basically taking it in half, or slightly less than half. The second through seventh rounds are very similar to what we saw before. There's just a lot less negotiation going on between the teams and the agents for those deals. We're seeing these deals that used to take three months to get done on the day before training camp. Now I think, here we are basically at the end of May. And the draft being in May this year, we're a couple weeks after the draft and I think over 50% of the picks have been signed already, which you never would've seen, you know, pre-CBA. >> So even here in Cleveland Johnny Manziel, not that you represent him, but if you did there's not much to be negotiated. >> That deal, that deal could get done, literally in, in an hour if they say wanted to do that. There's, there's really not a lot of terms that, that, that, you know, can be bartered over. >> Let's go to the second contract. You have a lot of those on your website, your client base. How, how much negotiation room is there and then I guess I want to go to the ultimate free agency, restricted free agency. Understand the, the stages of growth for some of your clients. >> Yeah, I mean basically, you know, that the second contracts, so if a player plays that first four years of this rookie contract, let's say he's a draft pick. Now, for, for an undrafted player, they're going to sign a three year contract, so it's going to be a little bit different. But ultimately it's going to be that second contract. So, if you played three years and your contract's up, which would be an undrafted guy, you're a restricted free agent. If you're restricted the team has a right to give you a one year offer. And that plays out the same as it used to. That's on a, there's a couple different levels for restricted free agent but that's a one year contract. If you've played four years in the league you become an unrestricted free agent, if your contract's expired. And in those cases it's totally different than the rookie deals because this is a market driven business. And that part of it, with the way the cap is now, at least for 2013 and now for 14 has increased. We're starting to see some, some increase since the CBA, which we didn't see in the first few years. But those are market driven deals and the top, the top players are getting paid more and more. The minimum salaries, which makes up a lot of the league, have continued to increase. So we're seeing a, you know, we're seeing a wide range. Some deals are coming in very high. The majority deals are coming in near the minimum. And then you have that sort of middle tier player who, really can go either way depending on age, productivity. You know, again market, market you know, supply and demand in those cases dictating the contract value. But there's a lot of play there. As an agent for the player, has a lot to do with the market, the teams, the needs. How many other players at that position are a free agent? So, you know, that's, that's where we really come in. The research that we do, the comparables that we can draw in negotiations. Those, those things start to, to really play in on that second deal. >> And how about, this is quite famous. Everybody knows guaranteed versus not guaranteed. >> Right. >> How, how does that play out, let's say in the second contract? Is that, is that a negotiation as well? >> Absolutely, I mean the, the biggest things that, when I'm looking at a contract and we're trying to determine the value of, of, of a player who's coming up. Let's say he's going into his fifth year. Let's say he's a starter or may, even if he's not a starter, you're always looking for like the same things. Where are we at contract value wise? You can look at the average per year of a deal, which is a lot of times what media's going to report. But the average per year can really, it really doesn't give you the full story of the contract. The guaranteed amount is going to give you the full, it's going to start to bring in the picture. How much money is that guaranteed? And the other things that I look at is in a five year contract, historically, you're looking at the first two or three years. I want to know, what is the player receiving, guaranteed or not in the first two years of the deal, and the first three years of the deal. So, I'm looking at cash over two, cash over three. Years four, five and beyond, very unpredictable. It's going to be non-guaranteed basis, primarily, I mean I'm talking 99.9% of the players. So, the guaranteed money in the form of a signing bonus, master bonus, or a guaranteed based salary in those first couple years, that's, that's where we as an, as an agency, we understand that that's where the player's going to make their money. That they can plan, they can go to their financial adviser and be set. Figure and, and know what they're making. Football, which is primarily our business, that is you know, that signing bonus, that guaranteed, that is a portion of the contract that we can count on. The rest of it may look good. Sometimes the numbers look great in the last couple years of the deal but, actually achieving that or earning that money, sometimes very unlikely. >> So, now we get to [COUGH] the ultimate free agency, or past restrictions. If you get to some of these quarterback deals, many, many millions of dollars. I guess that's what the CBA has created. It is the Peyton Manning's of the world who are going to get max dollars. And the Tom Bradys'. >> Right. >> The Aaron Rodgers and, and so on. And, and, and when you get to that point are you, then are you just bumping up against the teams cap, is that really what it amounts to? >> Yeah, I mean, I think the cap is always an issue, depending on the team. There's also a lot of teams that are not, you know, it, it, it, they may claim it's a cap issue but it really isn't. You know I think for the most part again, this is a market driven business and teams are looking for comparables. So, if I have a cornerback that's coming up as a free agent and I'm trying to figure out where that cornerback fits among the other league's cornerbacks. And who, what other guys at that position, in this case corner, where were they paid, what age were they, what was their productivity level. And again, we're not in a, at quarterback you can do this a little bit but it's not a statistically driven game as, as baseball or basketball might be. So, you're really trying to figure out a value and, and those can be, it can be difficult to deduce. You're really trying to find comparables, you know, based on number of starts, productivity. Which is again you know, debatable term sometimes, what, how productive somebody is. Take an offensive lineman, who, there's no statistics. I mean, who's to say that, how good a player is? Even if he made a Pro Bowl, was that based off a reputation, is it based off of, you know? But there's more and more empirical data and more statistics now on players than there ever have been. But yeah as far as quarterbacks you mentioned. You know, the, the top players are, are getting paid and whether that was the old CBA or the old CBA that's not, that's not changing. And I think what you're seeing is you know, it is positional but quarterbacks are the highest paid position. And there's a market now set for the top guys. And I think you see some of the guys coming up you know, Cam Newton going to be a getting a new deal soon. Colin Kaepernick for the 49ers'. And they can look to past deals and say, okay, the market here is 18, 19, 20 million per year. And of course, that doesn't tell the whole story, what's the guaranteed? >> Mm-hm. >> So you look at Drew Brees' deal, you look at Aaron Rodgers who signed a deal, and you're starting to say, where does this player fit in, now look at the cap. It went from 123 million, to 136. So, we're looking at percentages of increases. Well, basically inflation but we're looking at the way the caps moving, trying to figure out how does that player fit with the guarantees, average per year and how's it going to be paid out. >> So, would you say talk cornerbacks, for example, Richard Sherman does a deal Then Joe Haden here locally does a deal. Is Joe Haden's deal an outlier, would you say? It seemed like it was over the top. >> I my first comment when I saw the Haden deal, I was surprised. And I think he's a very good player. >> Right. >> But I think Richard Sherman was considered the top cornerback in the game. And for for, for Haden's deal to come out was a strong deal for the player. I mean, I don't know the dynamics, again. >> Right, right, you're not criticizing anybody. >> That happened between, right, exactly. I don't know the dynamics between the Browns and, and you know and Joe Haden's agency. I don't know how that deal was done. But I was, I was surprised the deal came out, in many cases, between between the guaranteed money. And I talked about that money over two years and three years. Now, the average per year over the length of the contract was I think 13.5 compared to Sherman's 14. But it's actually a far better deal in the sense that in the first year through the second year and through the third year. He's actually exceeding the value that Sherman got in his deal. Both exceptional deals for the player but at the same time it did surprise me a little bit. >> And it's it seems some of the data that was analyzed was, was pretty subjective, you know. Number of tipped passes, I mean, really, you know. >> Again, I do think it is, it is difficult to assess. And I, I have a cornerback that, that was one of the, is one of the higher paid cornerbacks in the league and a lot of people would say that he was overpaid, which is a complement to me. >> Yeah, well done. >> But it is a, it is a difficult, it's a difficult assessment to make, is how good is your client? And, you know, obviously you want to find comparables at, at high levels, but you know, having a cornerback I know I went through this. You, you're, you're going off a number of starts, you're going off of, you know, .projecting futurability in the scheme. But interceptions, tipped passes, starts, those are all variables that may not have anything to do with what a player is doing play by play. There are certain stats services. Now, Pro Football Focus is one. >> Mm-hm. >> Stats Inc which is run through ESPN. They're, they're tracking every play now. And again, the teams do this on their own. >> Sure. >> They grade every player based on every play. So, they have their own system. And they may not agree with these things, but there are some independent ways to try to evaluate how good a player is in his position and how he stacks up against the competition. >> Yeah. Well, let's go all the way back to a Clowney type and, and the recruitment that guy started. He almost didn't play his last year, and got an insurance policy to protect himself against injury. >> Right. >> All that stuff. To sign a player like that, what kind of a guarantee, marketing guarantee would have to be made? >> Yeah, I mean, I wasn't involved in the recruiting of him. >> I mean, hypothetically. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, I've heard plenty of stories on it. I think, you know, the thing about my business and, and, and, and football is it's a highly competitive business. And with competition you see a lot of things happen, in order to, to sign clients. And essentially, and this is not to, to downgrade what, what my firm does, what I do, what any other agency does but the services we provide are somewhat similar. You know, we negotiate a contract. We're going to try to protect the player in a lot of ways. And, off the field marketing, foundation, image management, all these things. But 20 firms line up to meet with Jadeveon Clowney, they're going to tell him the same things. And they're all going to offer, what's now become customary in our business, we're going to, you know, we're going to pay for training. And with training, there's housing and rental cars, and there's certain things that, as agencies, as an agent, we're now, it's expected that we're paying for. And so every player, a Clowney, or probably, you know, dozens of other players near that position Clowney, in particular, was, was, you know, the most talked about and elite player in the draft. But, there's all these things that go into that process. And I think what, what has happened over the last, you know, ten, 15 years, and we're seeing it more and more, is what you're talking about is a marketing guarantee. So it's, it's an agency hypothetically saying, you know, we're willing to pay for your training Jadeveon and in addition to that we're, we're going to give you an X amount of dollars to guarantee what you would make on marketing. So, in his case, let's say it's 500,000, maybe it's a million. Whatever it was, the agency is actually forwarding that amount of money and saying this is an advance on marketing that you, that we, we think you'll earn. Now, whether he does it or not, the player is getting that money as a guarantee. And, the agency will then collect money off of endorsements. It could be over a career or could be over a finite period of time, depending on what the deal might have been. It might be a million over that we expect you would make in the first two years of the deal. So the player collects this, in many cases, what I would, what I would say ridiculous guarantee of money. And that has become a way that agents have been able to sort of elevate their status in the recruiting game. It's, it's not just here's what we are, this is what we do. We're, we negotiate contracts, we're very good at what we do. It's, not only do we do all these things, but we're going to provide you with a marketing guarantee. And obviously different firms have the ability to offer different things. So it gets extremely competitive, and I think what, you know, a lot of agents in our business, you know, they feel like it's, it may not be fair. But the, the players association, and in our business, it's, it's it's been ruled that that's, it's legal. And it's, it's something we're allowed to do and, and the firms with deeper pockets, obviously, have an advantage. So, the bigger firms have the ability to, you know, obviously reach into their pockets and make a larger guarantee. Now, whether that money is brought back initially, you know, that, that always is a question. >> Talk about protecting. That's a great answer. But talk about protecting [COUGH], you know, your top clients. The risks inherent anymore we see what happened to poor Davone Bess, on, on social media, on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. Don't mean to pick on, on poor Mr. Bess, he obviously had some issues there. But how do you protect your client base against making that, that big mistake on, on the Internet? >> Yeah, I mean I think that, you know, you'd like to say it's basic common sense and what, and the things you put out there about yourself. But what we try, what we try to instill in each of our clients is that you are, you are your own brand. You are your own business and, you know, we can handle the legal stuff and the contracts but you still have to your life day to day. And so, we do try to protect our clients as much as possible and that starts with educating them, you know, first and foremost. Social media can be great. It can also be very dangerous. And so, if you're putting yourself out there in social media, and you're going to say certain things or comment on social, on certain things. Or post pictures on certain things, that, those small, those small, you know, pictures, and, and, and snapshots of your life, that's what people know about you. So, if they see you if they see you partying or they see you saying something negatively about, about you know, something sensitive. That's what people know. Social media spreads like wildfire. You say one thing on Twitter or Facebook. You post a picture that can paint you in the, in the wrong way. There's no taking that back. >> Mm-hm. >> It's, it's out there. And you can, you can try to do all these things, but it's, it's the old adage. You can take, you know, you can take ten steps forward, but that time you take a step back, it's hard, it's hard to move forward again. And so what we're really trying to do is protect them from themselves. A lot of guys are very smart about it, and they're going to promote their foundations, they're going to promote the positive things. But one, one little issue. One, one trip up. Where they don't you know, where they're not thinking clearly. Or they're just, they put out an opinion. They, they say, you know, they think it's not going to be a big deal. It can be a big deal. >> Yeah. >> And, and marketing efforts. I mean, you know, you reach out to a company by doing some sort of deal, and they, they see that this player is controversial in some way. He's made negative remarks in some way. He's posted pictures that paint, you know, paint him in a negative light. Those things can derail any off the field endeavors. And obviously, and on the field endeavors, if it's, if it's, depending on what it is. >> And, and what about protecting against injury too? I mean, what can be done? We, we've had the expert in insurance, but concussions disabling, injuries of any kind, as, as an agent, what's your best advice? >> I think the, the smartest thing that, as an agent, that, that we do, and I think, I think most agents do a pretty good job of this, is recognizing that we don't know everything. And so we turn to people who are, who handle insurance. And when we sign a new client, we're going to turn to somebody in insurance and find out, what do they recommend here. Whether it's disability, whether it's loss of value in the draft. Umbrella policies, making sure home, auto, everything's covered. You know, you can't stop injuries from happening. You know, you can be smart about it. And I like a lot of things the NFL is doing. Some of it they're forced to do based off of concussion lawsuits and different things, but there, there's a lot of positive things that have been done at the same point it's a dangerous game. And, again, in, in football I think I saw the number of concussions last year was around 150 reported, I mean it seems even low to me. But, I mean, there's, you know, it's a dangerous game. Players get hurt, whether it's knees, back, you know, head. Things are going to happen so what you're trying to do is protect yourself as best you can. From our end, you know, dealing with people that understand the insurance and can protect them on their disability, life, all these things. Those are the smartest things. Now, if a player does get hurt and he gets released or he's you know, it it puts his career in danger, then there's a lot of things as an agent we can do too. Between workers compensation rights that they have through the NFL's Players Association. There's a lot of things we can do to help players after the fact as well. >> Okay, let, let, let's just fini, finish up and ask generally in, in this area when, when do you have to say to a player, look [COUGH] you know what, it may be time to hang it up. >> That's >> It's gotta be the hardest discussion. >> There is nothing. >> Because you're biting the hand that feeds. >> There is nothing. >> Or that you've done all you can to get them to signed. >> There's, there's nothing harder in our business than that. >> Yeah. >> And it, and it happens all the time. I, I've dealt with it yesterday, I'm dealing with it today. In football, and I'll, I'll go to the number here, I mean, 90 players go to camp. There's, there's 32 teams. You know, we can do some quick math there, but it's a lot of players. Cut down day has come. And they cut down to 75. Ultimately they, they cut down to 53. So, 53 from 90, times 32, you're looking at right around 1,200 players that are getting cut. I'm not that good at math, but it's pretty close. >> It's a lot. It's a big number. >> It's close, it's close. So 1,200 players are getting cut. Of that group I would say, on average, probably 300 to 400 of that group filter back into the league based off of injuries, practice squad, whatnot. So every year you're looking at, you know, the remaining 700, 800 who are done. They're not getting resigned. They don't know if, in many cases these were the best college players. In many cases they were guys drafted very early. At some point, everyone's career is over. You don't see a lot of guys in football holding press conferences to announce their retirement >> Right. >> It's, it's maybe one or two a year. >> Yeah. >> The other several hundred, they're forced out. And so these are very difficult things to try and help a guy transition into post career. And again, we talked about protecting. But this is more planning. As an agency, we're trying to, we like to have these conversations with our clients long before this happens. Sometimes it happens abruptly, and you can't plan for it. But, the key is trying to help a guy transition. And, you know, we're not doing our clients any favors if we're, if we're sugar coating things, or telling them to keep hanging in there and keep training. At some point they need to have money coming in not just going out. And if they're not going to be playing and in our best estimation, it's going to be difficult or there's not enough interest to get re-signed we have to let them know that. And that is an extremely difficult thing and a lot of times we don't know. You know, we can have a good idea that things are done or a player might not be re-signed for three or four months and all the signs are that he's probably not going to. And then low and behold, I'll get a phone call from a team saying, we'd like to bring this player in, we'd like to work him out. All of the sudden, now did we do a disservice by telling them to, that, you know, might be time to hang them up, and now he hasn't been working out for the last month. So it's a, it's a very delicate balance, and I, and I would agree it's, it's probably the toughest thing that we deal with, and it, it happens all the time. When is it over? In football, the turnover is just way higher than other sports. But, of course, it would happen in any sport. At some point you're, you're, you're facing that decision as a player, and we're trying to help with it, but it's, it's tough. >> And, and then you said, and this will be our last question. All of a sudden you're, you're helping to develop a coach's division, too. >> Sure, sure. >> And you're starting to represent some of the retirees who go into coaching- >> Yeah. And it's a, it's a natural transition, I think, for, for a lot of players, when they're done you know, we're trying to help them figure out things they want to do. Whether it's transition into broadcasting, transition into the business world, entrepreneurship. And there are a lot of good programs for, for players to get into. And we try to encourage that. But coaching and staying around the game that they love and that they've been involved with that's a, that's a natural transition for some guys. So, you know, as, as a firm, it makes sense to try to help them in any way we can. So some of our, some of our former clients have gotten into coaching at the NCAA level. We have now a couple of coaches that are at the NFL level as, as position coaches. So, that's a natural extension where you, you want to continue to help your guys. And that's a position where, we understand the business, we understand the contracts, we deal with these people all the time. Lot of times we know when openings are, are occurring. But yeah, it is a natural way to go in our business to help them, if that's what they're looking to do. >> Well you're, you're, you're the best Andy, we really thank you so much for being with us today. Anybody you represent is lucky to have you at beginning, middle, end of their careers. And can't thank you enough for being with us today. >> Thank you, really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. [MUSIC]
