>> But the aid can be an incentive for corruption.
I mean, that's.
>> Absolutely.
>> You know, it's just so much money around, and
if the government is not responsive, the government sees itself almost
like a private actor or, or a private group that,
that money can actual be redirected through its own personal interests.
What we would normally call corruption.
We've seen it in different parts of the world.
But, we've also seen governments
become more responsive as you say and, and
I supposed if they're more responsive not to
their own private interests but to the public
good that there, you'll have a reduction in corruption.
Because the public will demand that because they're not
participating in the benefits that the corrupt officials would have.
>> Sure.
>> What are some of the factors that move a, a society from,
from that trap of corruption or bad government to a more responsive one?
What are some of the things that
makes a government more responsive in these situations?
>> I mean that's the big question.
I don't think any of us have a very good idea on how to do that.
we, there are a lot of ideas on explaining
why it is often based on kind of historical
trajectories and you know, the, the work by Acemoglu
and Robinson really focuses on kind of the unique historical
context that countries like Botswana had and that favored their good institutions.
There's some that link Ghana's success to conditionality in aid
programs but we know that conditionality hasn't had the same positive
>> Doesn't always work. >> impacts in other countries.
So it's, it's not clear to me that we
know how external actors can impact those kinds of changes.
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think at some level those
kinds of changes and demands for improvement in governance
really have to come from people within these countries.
>> Right.
>> What we can do maybe is try to facilitate the space
in which they can act to to, to, to, to do that.
And make sure that international incentives
are align in way that improve that.
It may mean that, as some suggest, that some countries should not be given
aid, or should be limited in the kind of aid that is delivered because
of its ability to foster those kinds of corrupt practices.
Not an easy solution here.
>> So you know, the World Bank makes
this case that sustainable development is inclusive development.
And I, I guess inclusion is another word, word for something like democracy.
Or, at least participation in the public sphere.
>> Sure, sure.
>> And I know one of the things we've talked about in this
class is not just the alleviation of suffering, important though that is, but
the alleviation of suffering that, that gives a person a chance to be
on a ladder of prosperity, on a, on a trajectory of economic growth.
Could you give us, I mean maybe you could just give us an example
of a country where it's worked, knowing
of course that, that those particular conditions
may not translate to another place.
But is there a, is there a success story that, for people in, in the field
seems to give them hope that transitions can happen in a positive direction?
>> Transitions economically, politically, all of the above?
>> I guess we're looking for a place where the, the
transition, the economic and the politic
transitions align and are mutual supportive.
>> Ghana of course is one case that I'm familiar with and where you do see
some of that occurring.
And where the the, at the same time
that we've seen economic growth, we've seen strong moves
to democratization, and, and a multi-party system that's functioning,
and where elections change parties, change who's in power.
>> And is that because of this middle, the middle class that is developing?
>> I wouldn't say it's because of the middle class.
I would say that that has helped foster a rising middle class, which in turn might
be creating, beginning a virtuous circle.
But, you know, it's, it's not that the, the middle
class is yet there in terms of having the power.
It's just, it's starting to become a factor.
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think that the that the story there
is that international incentives really aligned for that country
to to benefit from sending signals to the rest
of the world that they are a functioning democracy.
>> Right.
>> That we did a lot as
an international community to support Rawlings and his
>> Right
>> decision to step down.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And it's not that easy for other countries.
>> Yeah
>> You know, if you want to move Zimbabwe on to
that trajectory for instance, their starting point is, is so different.
>> Right.
>> That it's unclear to me how you would provide the incentives
to those in power to, to move in that direction at this point.
The challenge of,