How can we use the things we share in common to address some of the most challenging problems facing the world? This course examines issues concerning poverty, the environment, technology, health care, gender, education and activism to help us understand better how to initiate positive change.
Varieties of Poverty and Development
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来自 Wesleyan University 的课程
How to Change the World
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Poverty and Development
Discussion about poverty and the relationship of poverty to philanthropy and to foreign aid, actions taken to mitigate the effects of poverty, of major theorists and economists working in this area and , also, a new approach to this subject through randomized experimentation.
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Michael S. Roth
[MUSIC]
>> One of the characteristics of the
poverty challenge, I guess, is having to just
take responsibility for so many choices, like how
much you're going to invest in clean water.
Whereas in the developed world, we take that for
granted and we don't have to actually think about it.
because that's the thing, we don't have to feel
responsible for clean water, because it's just all around us.
>> Yeah.
We don't even think about the challenge of having access to clean water.
And if we do it's, it's kind of, higher level challenges.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, the environmental quality of the water.
Does it have too much fluoride in it?
Where as for them, it's just getting
basic access that will prevent diarrheal diseases which
have real major health impacts and cause death even in a lot of young children.
>> So how did you, you said that, there have been some improvements in
the, in the, in the, village in Ghana where you did your Peace Corp work.
How did those improvements come about?
What, come about? What, what kinds of things sustained
them or initiated them? >> Sure.
Well I think that they're these are related to kind of larger global trends
>> Mm-hm.
>> And trends within the country as a whole as well.
You've seen Ghana grow quite a bit economically over the past decade or so.
Some of that in recent years, to be clear, is, is due to oil.
>> Right.
>> They, they had a big oil discovery in 2008 and that brought in wealth.
>> Helps. >> And, and it definitely helps.
And so that's, that's one of the reasons, but they were having sustained economic
growth since the, the 1990s before that.
And some of the story there is better
institutions, a democracy that's functioning better than ever.
That's a little more responsive to the needs of, of the broader population.
I think as you start to see a rising middle class,
which is something that I definitely noticed in the cities in Ghana.
>> Right.
>> That rising middle class makes different
kinds of demands on the government then
what we often would see before. >> Yeah.
>> And, and I think that that means that the
institutions are finding that they do have to be more responsive.
The big campaign issue in the election in
Ghana, one of the big issues, was education provision.,
>> Interesting.
>> You know, how do we get, how do we improve the provision of education?
Not just in terms of the quality in the cities but in terms of
expanding that to the rural areas, such as Northern Ghana, where I was a volunteer.
>> So the rule of government is a, is a
such an interesting issue, because we have, you know, some theories
of economic development, where governments are always kind of in
the way, they can, they can be more or less harmful.
They, they, they but some of the economic theorists look down at them.
Others see that without decent government, it doesn't have to be
excellent, but without decent government povertys just never going to be addressed.
Tell us a little bit about your at work
in Assyria and, and the contemporary views about the I
guess the politics of poverty or what the, what is
the, what is the connection between prosperity and decent government?
>> Yeah, well that definitely underlies a lot of the discourse
on, on, on aid in general over the last couple decades.
So if we're thinking about institutions work by Daron Acemoglu and
Jim Robinson and others have really
underscored the idea that good institutions could
really under provide kind of the underpinnings
for, for strong development in many countries.
And bad institutions we often hear from thinkers ranging from Dambisa Moyo, who
has this great book on called Dead Aid, which is very critical about
>> Right.
>> About the role of aid. and, and,
and the work of, of, of Bill Easterly and others.
Which really suggests that, as you said, government gets in
the way, partly because government doesn't always have the same interests
>> Right.
>> as the extreme poor in these countries.
>> Right.
>> When they are receiving aid, they're receiving aid perhaps because
it will facilitate their ability to gain the support of clients.
>> Mm-hm. Right.
>> And kind of a patronage type system that
they, that often underscore political development in much of Africa.
And so for them aid is as much a
problem as, you know, the so called resource curse.
>> Hm.
>> There's a great book by Scott Strauss
and David Leonard, which talks about that linkage between
>> Yeah.
>> They, their book is called Stalled Development.
And it really kind of compares. It says aid
can be just as bad as an oil shock.
Where we're very familiar with the oil curse
and how that can disrupt the incentives of government.
But to the extent that governments are the gatekeepers for these aid deliveries,
that aid can go to lots of other purposes besides helping the extreme poor.
And that's the problem.
But if the government is responsive to the people.
>> Mm-hm.
>> To the extent that that happens, as
that, as the institutions improve then, that aid delivery,
people are going to want the government to be accountable.
They're going to want to know where that money is going.
And as that improves and as the government sees that it
can gain itself, or its survival is linked to the livelihoods
of the poor or the extreme poor, then that also can,
can, can support better methods of, of aid delivery in these countries.
>> So, this may be too simple, but >> Sure.
>> But the aid can be an incentive for corruption.
I mean, that's.
>> Absolutely.
>> You know, it's just so much money around, and
if the government is not responsive, the government sees itself almost
like a private actor or, or a private group that,
that money can actual be redirected through its own personal interests.
What we would normally call corruption.
We've seen it in different parts of the world.
But, we've also seen governments
become more responsive as you say and, and
I supposed if they're more responsive not to
their own private interests but to the public
good that there, you'll have a reduction in corruption.
Because the public will demand that because they're not
participating in the benefits that the corrupt officials would have.
>> Sure.
>> What are some of the factors that move a, a society from,
from that trap of corruption or bad government to a more responsive one?
What are some of the things that
makes a government more responsive in these situations?
>> I mean that's the big question.
I don't think any of us have a very good idea on how to do that.
we, there are a lot of ideas on explaining
why it is often based on kind of historical
trajectories and you know, the, the work by Acemoglu
and Robinson really focuses on kind of the unique historical
context that countries like Botswana had and that favored their good institutions.
There's some that link Ghana's success to conditionality in aid
programs but we know that conditionality hasn't had the same positive
>> Doesn't always work. >> impacts in other countries.
So it's, it's not clear to me that we
know how external actors can impact those kinds of changes.
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think at some level those
kinds of changes and demands for improvement in governance
really have to come from people within these countries.
>> Right.
>> What we can do maybe is try to facilitate the space
in which they can act to to, to, to, to do that.
And make sure that international incentives
are align in way that improve that.
It may mean that, as some suggest, that some countries should not be given
aid, or should be limited in the kind of aid that is delivered because
of its ability to foster those kinds of corrupt practices.
Not an easy solution here.
>> So you know, the World Bank makes
this case that sustainable development is inclusive development.
And I, I guess inclusion is another word, word for something like democracy.
Or, at least participation in the public sphere.
>> Sure, sure.
>> And I know one of the things we've talked about in this
class is not just the alleviation of suffering, important though that is, but
the alleviation of suffering that, that gives a person a chance to be
on a ladder of prosperity, on a, on a trajectory of economic growth.
Could you give us, I mean maybe you could just give us an example
of a country where it's worked, knowing
of course that, that those particular conditions
may not translate to another place.
But is there a, is there a success story that, for people in, in the field
seems to give them hope that transitions can happen in a positive direction?
>> Transitions economically, politically, all of the above?
>> I guess we're looking for a place where the, the
transition, the economic and the politic
transitions align and are mutual supportive.
>> Ghana of course is one case that I'm familiar with and where you do see
some of that occurring.
And where the the, at the same time
that we've seen economic growth, we've seen strong moves
to democratization, and, and a multi-party system that's functioning,
and where elections change parties, change who's in power.
>> And is that because of this middle, the middle class that is developing?
>> I wouldn't say it's because of the middle class.
I would say that that has helped foster a rising middle class, which in turn might
be creating, beginning a virtuous circle.
But, you know, it's, it's not that the, the middle
class is yet there in terms of having the power.
It's just, it's starting to become a factor.
>> Mm-hm.
>> I think that the that the story there
is that international incentives really aligned for that country
to to benefit from sending signals to the rest
of the world that they are a functioning democracy.
>> Right.
>> That we did a lot as
an international community to support Rawlings and his
>> Right
>> decision to step down.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And it's not that easy for other countries.
>> Yeah
>> You know, if you want to move Zimbabwe on to
that trajectory for instance, their starting point is, is so different.
>> Right.
>> That it's unclear to me how you would provide the incentives
to those in power to, to move in that direction at this point.
The challenge of,
of moving forward in those kinds of directions are huge.
I think the best we can do rather than think about those kind of big push.
>> Yep.
>> Transformational projects is really just concentrate on finding ways
to deliver aid that works at, at the local level.
>> Yeah. >> and, and really paying attention.
So one of the recent books that came out this past year, Ben Ramalingam's book
on on Aid at the Edge of Chaos, looks
>> Aid, Aid on the Edge of Chaos, uh-huh.
>> Aid on the Edge of Chaos.
He looks at applying complexity theory to the world of aid.
And it's got a lot of press over the last year.
And it's partly because he's doing
some very interesting things methodologically with thinking
about complexity theory, which of course had its beginnings in math and science.
But he notes that some of what we need to consider and use
as the experience of agricultural development in Bali to underscore the
story he wants to tell is that we need to really pay attention to local knowledge.
>> Yeah.
>> And if we don't do that, and if we're
not paying attention to how local systems have developed and
been generated on their own and we just come in
with our own ideas, we can actually disrupt systems that work.
And what,
what is a better thing for us to do is
to find ways to expand the space, the capacity, you
know, that, that, the, the systems have to continue to
evolve and maybe move on in new directions, in different directions.
Rather than trying to alter those systems directly necessarily.
>> Paying attention to local knowledge and trying to find I
guess what you might call emergent possibilities there on the scene rather
than come in with a model that may have worked across
the globe or in your own country and try to impose it.
That seems to be few more more fruitful as a way of approaching these issues.
>> Oh absolutely, yeah.
And, and we see a lot of work in those, in that vain, that's emerging over the last
decade or so. >> Mm-hm.
>> We've actually had a number of students at Wesleyan
for instance work with a group called innovations for Poverty Action.
That's associated also with MIT's Poverty Action lab.
>> Right.
>> And we've had students work with MIT there, as well.
>> Yeah.
>> And those programs are really trying to find out what does work.
>> Mm-hm.
>> When it comes to altering people's behavior.
>> Right.
>> For instance,
encouraging to use mosquito nets. >> Yeah.
>> and, and, and that type of thing. So when it comes to those kinds of
projects what we often see these researchers do is they take an aid concept
>> Right
>> An aid idea and they apply it in a random way across a geographic area.
Some villages will, you know, be given
this so-called treatment and others will not
>> Right.
>> And and the idea is to figure
out well, given that these populations are mostly
similar, are those that receive a certain message
or that receive, you know, free bed nets.
>> Right.
>> Versus bed nets that that, that are, that they have to pay for.
>> Right.
>> How does that effect the ultimate outcomes that we're looking for?
And that research is really starting to inform a
lot of our thinking and some of it's scalable.
>> Right. >> And some of it,
we discover is not. That there might be limits to that.
It might be that, you know, what we're learning is
about what works within a given set of contextual parameters.
>> Yeah. > Yeah.
>> So, so that the local knowledge you get is just local.
So it. >> Exactly, exactly.
>> And that's okay.
It's just, yeah. >> But that's fine, and that's fine.
And, you know, and if we think about, you know, one of the things I think about
when I think about where work on development
in aid is going, is as we start to
see the rest of these countries rise economically it
may be too that some of the challenges that
they're experiencing aren't that different from the challenges that
the poor experience in the developed world as well.
Or that, at least that we've had experiences dealing with over the last
century and as we've risen in the United States and in Europe as well.
>> Interesting.
>> And so, it may be that we begin to
start to see that there are ways in which what the
work we've done will start to pay off in terms of how
we understand what, what can work in, in these other contexts as well.
And that's something I, that, that kind of excites me
>> Yeah, yeah.
>> And, and I see a lot of
students starting to draw those connections as well.
>> So when the students who come to your
classes are they, are they mostly interested in economics?
Are they mostly interested in politics, or do they not make the distinction?
Because it, it, it, this overlap seems so great.
>> Yeah, I
know there is a lot of overlap.
I think that I mean they come to me
to, to my classroom with a lot of different interests.
Some of them are interested, a lot of
them are interested in poverty overall, as an issue.
>> Mm-hm.
>> But their ideas about what matters for poverty or, or or
how to connect to that issue of poverty are often very different.
We have a lot of students, for instance, that take
my classes that are at the college of environments as well.
And so they can link their
concerns about poaching to the economic livelihoods of those that have
relied on that trade or they link their concerns about climate change.
>> Yeah.
>> To to, to how that impacts the poor
as well and, and definitely that does have major impacts.
Rainfall shocks we know whether it's drought or floods
>> Right
>> It impacts the provision
it impacts food security >> Yeah
>> For the, for the extreme poor.
And it, it can even lead to violence some research has suggested.
>> Yes, and, and so the, the knowing you have this cycle of
violence or social disturbances you're, you're clearly in the political realm,
>> Sure.
>> But it's the causes of that, that, those occurrences are coming
out of economics, they're very hard, they become very hard to separate.
>> Yeah.
Well these issues are interrelated, you know, I think
we can't just separate out the economics from the politics,
>> Mm-hm
>> From the environmental concerns, from, from,
from social concerns, cultural concerns as well.
If you think about, you know, the concerns about the
spread of HIV and AIDS and the role of contraception.
We got religion and culture that also often plays a
role in, in debates on how to approach those issues.
>> We have seen over the last, you know, fifty years
a pretty significant reduction in extreme poverty.
>> Mm-hm.
>> And I know major organizations like the World
Bank are, and others have set aggressive targets for, you
know, reducing poverty over the next ten to twenty-five years,
How optimistic are you about these efforts, what do you?
>> Well.
>> What do you see? >> I'm somewhat optimistic.
I'm cautiously optimistic.
And ,you know, I know that the World Bank for
instance has set a goal of eradicating extreme poverty by 2030.
>> Yeah.
>> And and that seems to be in some ways ambitious.
You know we've talked you, you can talk abut the millennium
development goals which also had similar kind of high hopes and we're
not quite meeting all those millennium development goals as we approach 2015
when some of them are, are, are, are due to be assessed.
And, nevertheless we have seen progress. >> Yeah.
>> And,
I do think that while I, I'm skeptical about completely
eliminating extreme poverty especially the transitional sort which we also experience
>> Right.
>> In the US.
We might get to a point where, where structurally the
number of people that are in those situations,um, are very small.
And what that will rely on though is not
just what we do in terms of aid and development.
>> Right
>> But in terms of thinking about the global economy.
>> Right.
>> And whether it's going to continue to grow.
Whether or not China continues to have a demand
for the raw materials that they source in Africa.
Whether or not African countries can find a way
to move out of the business of exporting raw
materials into creating more value-added goods or, as some
countries are trying to do, leap frog the industrial age.
>> Right.
>> And move into the technological age and
>> Yeah. >> And and expand their IT sectors.
>> Yeah.
>> There's big projects for instance to create information technology
cities in in Kenya and in Ghana with the idea
that this is, this is where they could specialize if
they, if they just put the right resources into it.
>> So there is a great, is a place where education is,
is a, a, a key part of the dynamic for addressing poverty.
And education is, I guess, feeds right back to the political system.
>> Sure.
>> So once again where,
the, the, those fields are really closely intertwined.
In a class like ours, we'll have students who are, are
very concerned about the issues of economic development and poverty.
And are eager to find ways to draw the right kind of attention to
these issues or make some difference in, in how we think
about the alleviation of suffering and the promotion of economic growth.
And any suggestions for how students can get involved or play a
role that's positive in this, in this, you know, very difficult realm?
>> Yeah, well I, I have some kind
of broad general suggestions to begin with, I guess.
>> Great.
>> So you know, the one word that I would like to stress is facilitate.
I think that one thing we can all do is try
to find ways to facilitate development, economic
growth, and the reduction of extreme poverty.
>> Mm-hm.
>> Across the, across the globe, but especially in developing countries.
And in order to do that I think that we do need to think about not just how
we give aid, but also our policies and behaviors that begin at home.
>> Yeah.
>> We need to think about, for instance
the role that America's trade policy has
on the economic potential of developing countries.
>> Right.
>> We need to think about the role that we play
in terms of trying to solve the problems of climate change.
>> Mm-hm.
>> All of these things might actually have greater impacts in the long run
over the ability of developing countries to,
to, to raise themselves out of these situations,
where they have large populations living in extreme poverty.
Beyond that, if we're thinking about how do I give?
and, and where do I give?
You know we can give in terms of ourselves, in terms of volunteering.
We can give in terms of trying to find ways to set up new
institutions that will facilitate development we can
give in terms of just giving money.
And there are strengths and weaknesses
to all of these approaches.
I think if you're going to develop a new institution you should
make sure that you have a very good reason for doing so.
>> Yeah.
>> One of the challenges that some developing countries
have is that there are too many people doing this.
>> Yeah.
>> So when one a story about Ethiopia's Ministry of
Health is that half their time is spent talking to donors.
>> Really? >> Rather than working on developing
health policy that could benefit the population.
>> Yeah.
>> And so they have a very fragmented aid system, where there's lots of people
giving small amounts of money, and they have to pay attention to all those flows.
And on one level, that's welcome.
But we do want to think about maybe
there are ways we could be more coherent globally.
>> Right. >> In how we approach this.
And so keeping that in mind is something
that, that I would encourage your students to do.
But, if you are going to give Erik Freeman
has a book on reinventing philanthropy, I don't know if you've come across it.
And one of his key distinctions is between the do gooder and the do bester.
>> Yeah.
>> And the do gooder is someone who's
focused primarily on trying to do some good
in the world, but is doing that partly
because they know they're going to get some satisfaction.
>> Right.
>> And because of the personal connection they might feel.
>> Yeah.
>> To the to those issues.
The do bester is much more focused on the outcomes.
They want to know well where can I have the greatest impact
>> Right.
>> In terms of where my giving is going to go.
>> Yep.
>> And so one thing I would suggest that
your students do is really pay attention to that.
What are the big issue areas?
>> Yep.
>> Where they can have the biggest impact.
Often it is in public health and
education, issues we have already touched on.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, thinking about, you know, which organizations are more efficient.
There are,
there are increasingly a number of institutions that are trying to rate.
>> Yes.
>> Private NGOs
>> Yeah.
>> And aid agencies on their ability their ability to deliver outcomes.
And one of those is giving well for instance.
And giving well is one of those institutions that tries to
help us sort out, 'because it takes a lot of work.
>> Yeah.
>> To kind of figure out, you
know, who's, who's actually benefiting the extreme poor.
>> Yeah.
>> And so that's, that's another piece to this, I would say as well.
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