How can we use the things we share in common to address some of the most challenging problems facing the world? This course examines issues concerning poverty, the environment, technology, health care, gender, education and activism to help us understand better how to initiate positive change.
You Can Have Impact: Nicholas Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn (Part 1)
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来自 Wesleyan University 的课程
How to Change the World
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从本节课中
Women, Education and Social Change
Discussion of gender issues and the upward mobility of women, across business and education.
与讲师见面
Michael S. Roth
[MUSIC]
I'm here with Nicholas Kristof and
Sheryl WuDunn and we're going to be talking about A Path Appears and
we're going to be talking about their work both on identifying.
Some of the massive global challenges we have in the world today and
most importantly,
the ways in which many people around the globe are meeting those challenges.
And so, thank you for making the time to talk with me today, and.
Maybe I just start by asking you to talk a little bit about,
how you decided to write this book.
Which is such a,
a wonderful catalogue of the things we can do to change the world for the better.
>> Sure, well, after we wrote Half the Sky about empowering women around the world,
people kept asking us, so what can we do?
And we think there is this, you know, real yearning on, on the part of people to
find a way to give back, to find some kind of source of meaning or purpose in life.
And yet also a frustration that the problem seemed vast, and
sometimes difficult to find a way of having an impact.
I think people are skeptical about corruption, inefficiency.
>> Yes. >> And aid groups.
And kind of question whether anything they do is going to be,
you know, is going to really have impact.
Is going to be more than a drop in the bucket.
And, in fact, it seems to us, that there are ways, one can have an impact.
That there are ways one can address the issues of corruption and efficiency.
And that there's real evidence now in a way that there wasn't ten or
20 years ago, about how one can find the greatest bang for the buck.
>> The book is more than just a catalogue.
It really is taking on some of the largest challenges of the world right now.
And one of those is basically, how do you balance the inequities between the,
the divide, the great divide between the rich and the poor.
We've argued over whether that gap is growing, but
what we start with is that it's there, it's bad and it needs to be resolved.
And so we have.
Of course, interviewed the experts.
>> Yes. >> And talked to them about what works to
basically even out the divide.
And it comes down to, spreading opportunity.
>> You, you're geographically capacious.
You're looking at very different parts of the world, right?
And, and, and did you see very different obstacles to opportunity in
different geographical locations, or did you see the things that,
there was a similar patterns in various parts of the world?
>> I think that one common thread is that typically,
the best escalator out of poverty is education.
>> Yes. >> And education beginning very early.
But another common thread is that, that escalator.
Is often broken for
those who need it most, whether you're talking about Tanzania or about the US.
And we also get asked often by young Americans, you know, shouldn't we
solve our own problems first, before we're worrying about the rest of the world?
And our take is that, look our empathy and our compassion should
not depend on the color of somebody's skin, or the color of their passport.
>> Right. >> And that often,
in fact, we can get more bang for the buck helping abroad than we can at home.
But that also,
conversely, especially among kind of upper middle class American, young Americans,
there is sometimes a sense in which it's cool to go volunteer for a summer abroad.
But that it's not cool to tutor some kid in
the wrong side of the tracks in your home town.
And that we think is easily wrongheaded.
That there are huge needs at home and
abroad, and we shouldn't put them against each other.
>> I think that's really interesting in the context of this class because oh,
more than half of the class, usually two thirds, will be from outside the US.
And one of the interesting things for me is to hear the conversations between
Americans and citizens from all over the world about what they see as
some of the striking, as an American, I spent most of my life in this country.
I, I, I've learned so much from hearing the point of view on America and
American philanthropy from students from all different parts of the world.
>> Well, you know, I mean, giving is such an empowering experience.
And one of the stories we tell in is about a group of Ugandan kids in, in
Northern Uganda some of them were orphans from the brutal still war up there.
And they're attending.
An academy there school, and
they decide that they want to support some American kids.
[LAUGH] And so they, they raise a little garden and raise a,
a tiny amount of money, I think it was about.
$20, $21 and they select a, a group in the US that mentors boys in need.
And so they contact the group and say we want to,
you know, [LAUGH] we Ugandan kids want to support these American boys.
[CROSSTALK] And the American group didn't, I mean they were.
Aghast, they, thought, you know, how, we can't take your money!
But, but then they realized that there is something truly empowering about,
about giving-
>> Yes.
>> And that, you know, one shouldn't rob those kids.
Of that opportunity,
whatever the physical level of economic deprivation they suffered from.
>> Yeah, there actually are scientific dimensions to giving and
we visited some neuroscientists, and actually had our brains scanned as well
just to see what happens when you actually.
Give and also when you receive.
And in some of the research that we discovered.
In one particular survey, half of the research subjects actually derived more
pleasure, when they gave than when they got.
And so that was a very interesting aspect.
>> In that section of the book, you talk about the way in which.
Giving becomes part of one's life, because it is a pleasure that it, it we
biologically, many of us biologically respond to that, that act of giving.
And we want to, we want to have that, that satisfaction again.
We want to feel that again and it sets up this virtuous circle.
That's, that's biologically supported, and not just supported by cultural forces.
>> That's right.
>> Actually, theoretically, it's kind of interesting,
because it does reflect sort of the the, the pleasure centers of the brain.
When you actually give, it stimulates the pleasure centers of the brain-
>> Yes. >> Which are the same
parts of the brain that, of course, we feel pleasure when we eat candy,
or fall in love or flirt, but also when we build up addictions.
>> Yeah. >> Theoretically,
you can get addicted to giving.
>> Yes, and this is a vir, virtuous addiction.
>> Yeah. [LAUGH]
>> Better than some addictions.
>> Yeah, so tell me a little bit about the most surprising things you
came across doing the research for the book.
I mean there are probably.
And so many interesting cases that you des, that you describe and
it's so inspiring.
And I wondered as, as you were finding these really wonderful they're,
they're givers and they're doers, right?
and, and, what, what, what are some of the, the big surprises you had?
>> I think one thing that struck me was, and maybe it goes a little back to
those Ugandan kids, that giving is not so much a reflection of when circumstance is.
In the US for
example, the wealthiest 20% of Americans give less than the poorest 20%.
And this is not a reflection of the fact that affluent people are somehow less
empathetic, or less compassionate, or less good people, but rather it's that
if you are wealthy, you've managed to insulate yourself from me.
You probably live in a nice neighborhood,
you're surrounded by [CROSSTALK] neighbors and co-workers.
>> Yes.
>> Who are also fairly well off.
And so you don't see need.
But on the other hand, if you are poorer in America today,
then every day you encounter people who are even poorer than you, and
when you see that need you respond and you reach into your pocket and help.
It's that kind of encounter I think that builds empathy.
I think we have a huge empathy gap worldwide.
And I think that you know, it's one of the challenges of education indeed to try and
chip away at that empathy gap,
in part by acquainting those who won the lottery at birth.
>> Yes. >> With the situation of
those who have not.
>> And another thing that is along those lines in terms of the research is that
there has been a big debate over whether or not money buys happiness.
>> Yes.
>> And they have looked into what happens.
There have been lots of studies.
I'm sure you're familiar with them.
And it's still quite debatable, but it does seem as though.
In terms of what we found most, most confident in the research.
It does seem as though once you have achieved a certain amount of wealth,
then beyond that, your life satisfaction really doesn't change.
>> Right.
>> That you can be [SOUND] very, very happy with a certain amount.
And above that.
You know, it's gravy, [CROSSTALK] it might help but
it's not going to really buy you happiness.
>> Right, diminishing returns.
>> Yes. >> Yeah, exactly.
And the other important aspect is that what makes you happy with money,
is not necessarily material goods.
But actually experiences.
>> Yes. >> And that's where your interactions with
people and the way you interact in terms of giving, or getting, or
feeling compassion really is what brings you happiness.
>> So, I think that I'll relate this to something Cheryl said before,
is that what you're talking about is creating opportunity, right?
And, and, and, and I know as a, you know, a, a, as a recipient, also, of, of,
of opportunity, right, when you, when you discover you have more opportunities than
you thought you did, that, that, that's, it's a freedom feeling, right?
It's a pleasure.
It's, it's, it's a opening of the world, a little bit.
more.
Can you tell us the students in this class about, you know an account from your, from
your research about, you know, someone whose life is really changed because
suddenly opportunities are there that they, they never expected would be there.
>> I think the story about Cadija Williams Williams,
who is a, she really was a homeless person.
Her mother and her sister and her.
Lived in California, but they moved from shelter to shelter she missed most of
elementary school I think she attended 3rd and 4th grade.
And she got tested during that time and tested very well, but
she missed a lot of 6th and 7th grade and she only went to two weeks of 8th grade,
so basically she was uneducated when she got to high school.
When she vowed, that she would stay in the same high school, and just bear it.
>> Yeah. >> She would, no matter what.
So that meant getting up at 4 am,
from the homeless shelter, taking a series of buses to get to her high school.
And then arriving there, and staying there,
going to every single after school club that she could get to until 11 pm.
When she got back home, and did it all over again the next day.
But, she got some help from Upward Bound.
From the Central Scholars of, of Los Angeles.
From a number of organizations that were affiliated with the school.
And also from all the teachers.
>> Yeah. >> And anyone she could get her hands on.
And they really gave her a leg up.
And then when she was, she actually ended up doing really well on SATs, scoring very
high and graduated, you know, at the top of her class, near the top of her class.
And she made some applications, someone invited her into their home.
For the few months while she was writing her applications.
>> Yeah.
>> Again, someone lent her a helping hand.
And she applied and she ended up getting to Harvard, on full scholarship.
I mean, the opportunities there.
Of course, you, she need, she worked hard.
She's a remarkable person but she.
Had the world at our feet, basically, after living in a homeless shelter.
>> Yeah.
I think what's so great about that story is that, as you say, I mean,
she's a remarkable person, she's got enormous gifts.
But as you, as you recounted, at every step,
someone helped make that possible for her to get to the next step.
I mean, she's doing a lot on her own.
But, you know, in America, we often have this idea that we're pulling ourselves up.
And and, and that's, that's not only a myth, but it, it's, it's, it doesn't serve
us so well because it, you know, it's, it's part of the greatness of that story
is that she is helped by other people, and she knows how to use that help.
I mean, it's, it's this,
it's, reciprocity is always part of the creation of opportunity.
And I think sometimes in America we our individualism gets in the way of that.
We want to think that if anybody helped us,
somehow it's, our achievements are less.
But in fact, it probably,
they should be celebrated even more when they include more people.
>> Absolutely.
>> You know, I think that the central, kind of aphorism of our time is
that is that talent is universal, but opportunity is not.
>> Right. >> And, successful people, I think,
have an extraordinary ability to.
Look in the mirror and see a narrative of how intellectual brilliance, and
a hard work, [LAUGH] this, this great achievement out of, out of nothing.
And you know, and then to leap from there to the next step which is to
become judgemental and to say well those people who were less successful,
that's because they are less hard-working or less smart.
And to see poverty thus as not only a economic weakness, but
as a moral weakness.
Susan Fisk at Princeton did some really.
Startling brain scans of successful people looking at,
at the scan, looking at pictures of people who were homeless or manifestly poor.
And she found that, that the brain processed those images,
as if they were not people, but things.
You know, boy, that is a reflection of how we can delude ourselves and, you know,
I, I think at the end of the day and you so, you made reference to this, that sure,
I think successful people often are smart and hardworking and did things right.
But they also typically benefited by the fact that they had loving parents who
were supporting them, reading to them.
You know, supporting them with after school activities every step of the way.
And they're all kinds of things that happen in middle class households that we
tend not to even think about the kinds of supports that are just in the backdrop.
>> Right. >> And
if we had ended up in the lottery of birth in different circumstances, we,
you know, our outcomes would be entirely different.
>> Yeah. Well, I think, there's, there's no reason
for us to try to emphasize that we create our own opportunity.
I mean, I think.
If we could celebrate how our opportunities, are the creation of
collaboration and reciprocity of, that doesn't diminish anyone's achievement.
In fact, it opens up that achievement to greater participation.
And, I, I, that's good for everybody it seems.
And I, that's one of the morals I take away from, from your book.
>> Absolutely.
>> So I want to go back to the, a little bit to your earlier work on.
On, empowering women, which, is certainly a thread in the current book as well
because in our class, we spend a week on gender and education and, and we, we read
some depressing work from [INAUDIBLE] very important work about the missing women,
and, and, and the, and the difficulties of changing patriarchal cultures.
And we read some more hopeful work about
the leverage you get from investing in women's education.
And I know that you have been very strong proponents of empowering women,
both for it's own political and moral qualities.
But, also because of the extraordinary reverberations,
that empowering women can have across society.
